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Thread: Sakura's problem: I still confuse about Magic Crest and Sealing designations.

  1. #161
    吸血鬼 Vampire kohaku's Avatar
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    Usually don't consume the flesh of women, but the uterus is their favorite meals. Will eat the placenta after giving its victim sexual pleasure strong enough to fry the nerves of the brain.
    I don't know where these information from, but someone writes it on typemoon wikia:

    https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Zou...ote-AniMats-17

  2. #162
    全力後輩 - Zenryoku Kohai Altima of the Gates's Avatar
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    FGO basically seemed to reconsider it anyway, since when described it says the host eventually succumbs. And in Fate Zero, Kariya doesn't imply as if the worms he gets are in any way different from the ones he got, and says she handles things better because she is stronger.
    That's it. So likely the way they would eventually devour the victim seems to be when the host can't provide energy. Like a parasitic organism that will eventually kill its host once the nutrients have been extracted. Its just that again, Sakura is naturally very powerful, so under normal circumstances she could handle the drain(also brings more into perspective a logical reason she would prefer not to fight, as that kinda starts the Doom counter).
    So it likely does mean that she can have children.

    Quote Originally Posted by warellis View Post
    You brought up the second one earlier in the thread, which was what I was referencing.

  3. #163
    吸血鬼 Vampire kohaku's Avatar
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    What is Zouken trying to do with Sakura?


    People usually talking about:
    - Black Grail.
    - Forces her to give birth to the Matou children.
    However, I see very few guys talking about his plan to make Sakura as his new body/vessel.


    Look at how Illya talk about this method when she is playing with Shirou in the park ( day 6), we can imagine Zouken's method:
    - Mindbreak a human ( because you can't take control a human who still sane.), and take control him/herself.

    ---------------------------------


    In summary, Sakura actually should be dead 11 years ago. And " Sakura" we see today actually should be " Zouken in Sakura's body.". But thank to Sakura's strong mind, her mind still alive. Both Tokiomi and Zouken never aware of Sakura's mind before.

    ----------------------------------


    It is funny when Tokiomi's fans keep talking about " his good intention", " it still better than give Sakura to the Magus Association - who will experimental her.".


    No matter his intention is good or bad, his decision actually can't satisfied Sakura with even the most simple thing: Keep her alive.

  4. #164
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six forumghost's Avatar
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    Zouken updated and changed his plans to suit the circumstances at hand.

    First he wanted her mother (Aoi) to provide an heir that wouldn't be a shitlord like the rest of his descendants, but Kariya was too Beta to seal the deal.
    Then he wanted Sakura as a substitute for that plan, since he wasn't degrading as fast yet in Zero and figured he could skip the 4th War and go for the 5th in 50 years.
    Then he got his hands on Iri's pieces and went "Y'know what, sure, lets see what I can do with this" Making her into a false Grail that would allow for the birth of Angra Mainyu. (He was only able to implement this in HF, because Shirou started reciprocating her affection, which gave Zouken and angle).

    He didn't want her body earlier, because it'd just break down like all of the others. He wanted her because she was the Vessel of AM, a being created with the Third Magic, and thus a true, perfect, capital I Immortal.

    Zouken, like most good schemers, simply adapted to what was there.


    Incidentally, I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that giving Sakura to Zouken is better then giving her to someone from the Clocktower, just that Tokiomi didn't intend that it wind up that way.

    It's just that Tokiomi's version of the Tohsaka-goof-up-gene manifested itself in him trusting exactly the wrong people at exactly the wrong time.
    Last edited by forumghost; January 13th, 2021 at 06:45 AM.

  5. #165
    吸血鬼 Vampire kohaku's Avatar
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    He didn't want her body earlier, because it'd just break down like all of the others. He wanted her because she was the Vessel of AM, a being created with the Third Magic, and thus a true, perfect, capital I Immortal.
    You don't understand what I am meaning when I say " he trying to kill her."
    Check the method what Illya says to Shirou during day 6. Illya named it " transfer of consciousness":


    "There's a nerve going from your eyes to your brain, right? I connected that nerve to something other than your eyes.
    You were getting information from the trees in my forest instead of your eyes."
    ...
    "......So your consciousness just returns to your original body even if an enemy destroys your familiar?"

    "Yes. Magi who transfer their minds usually hide their original bodies in a safe place.
    In cases like this, you need to watch out when you transfer into a familiar with its own soul."
    ...
    "If you want to transfer yourself into a living thing, you can make a familiar without a soul.But the soulless familiars used today are weak. It's just like controlling a doll filled with cotton.
    They're only useful as messengers."
    ...

    "When you transfer your consciousness into something with a proper chain of command, the initiative is completely held by them."

    "So even if you transfer into humans or animals, you can only occupy a corner of their brain and observe what they see. They will serve as a camera, not a remote-controlled robot."

    "Moving your consciousness into a living thing with its own will is more like reincarnation than transfer.
    That alone is a great magic, so no ordinary magus would be able to do it."
    Illya actually is talking about Zouken's method.
    - If you transfer of consciousness to a thing: You can't do anything.
    - If you transfer of consciousness to a doll or familiar: It is too weak.
    - If you transfer of consciousness to a human or animal: You only can occupy a corner of their brain, and see what they see.

    So, how you can take control of a human with this method?
    Answer: You mindbreak them.


    Your victim is brain-dead, but they still alive-still-breathing. They will not go rotten as these coprses which Zouken uses until now.

    ----------------------

    Incidentally, I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that giving Sakura to Zouken is better then giving her to someone from the Clocktower, just that Tokiomi didn't intend that it wind up that way.

    It's just that Tokiomi's version of the Tohsaka-goof-up-gene manifested itself in him trusting exactly the wrong people at exactly the wrong time.
    Even if Zouken wants to teach magecraft to Sakura or not, he still throws her to the worms pit. It is the Matou's method to teach magecraft and training their people. She still is gangraped anyway. Of course, the little difference is: he will not add Grail to her, or let Shinji rapes her.

    Tokiomi sees Zouken is the awful vampire,too. And he actually doesn't care if Sakura is gangraped or tortured. He just cares if she received the power thank to that " education". Yeah, he will angry, but not because Zouken throws Sakura to the worms pit, but because she doesn't receive anything from that tortures.
    Last edited by kohaku; January 13th, 2021 at 07:31 AM.

  6. #166
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    Again, Tokiomi was stupid enough to believe that Sakura was valuable enough to Zouken that the latter would actually educate her as a mage because in Tokiomi's mind, any magus lacking an heir would treasure an adopted one like Sakura. Of course, Zouken, batshit insane as he is, doesn't follow those norms.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  7. #167
    吸血鬼 Vampire kohaku's Avatar
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    Again, Tokiomi was stupid enough to believe that Sakura was valuable enough to Zouken that the latter would actually educate her as a mage because in Tokiomi's mind, any magus lacking an heir would treasure an adopted one like Sakura. Of course, Zouken, batshit insane as he is, doesn't follow those norms.
    actually, he is stupid because say logic with Magus, who don't have any "logic" with their magecraft.


    -He thinks: " they need the heir" = " they have to teach my daughter about their magecraft."
    -Zouken: " we need the heir" = " we need a corpse which-still-breathing-and-a-uterus-still-working."
    - I don't feel strange if some families: " we need the heir" = " we can kill her and remove the Magic Circuit from herself."

    And, no matter Zouken wants to teach Sakura or not, he still throws her to the worms pit. That is his only way to train.

  8. #168
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    Zouken only wanted to train the body, never the mind, and that isn't something Tokiomi seemed to have known. Heirs for Zouken were just hosts or broodmares for potential hosts, and eventually Zouken would achieve true immortality via the Heaven's Feel. The wormpit was there to mentally and physically break Sakura into the perfect host. Training would have probably been more like what happened to Kariya. Bad, but still not as bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  9. #169
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six madarra's Avatar
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    Whats the difference between teaching the mind or the body when all magecraft if just twitching your magic circuits in specific cycles via trained reflexes/self hypnosis

  10. #170
    全力後輩 - Zenryoku Kohai Altima of the Gates's Avatar
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    It means he doesn't actually try having her learn more of the Makiri's secrets, and just experiments on her body to last through the pain and stay intact for whatever his plans are(probably why he did the poisonings, other than just being a sadist).
    So just him remaking the way her body works for his ends rather than being a teacher. Which makes it sadder she puts herself down that Zouken calls her slow, when in reality he is the one most impeding her progress.
    Its why that diary scene in Hollow is slightly satisfying. At the very least she found a teacher who actually wants to teach post route.

  11. #171
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    Yeah, if Zouken had actually trained Sakura in his magecraft by teaching her the spells engraved in the Crest Worms, I still would have hated Tokiomi for giving her up to this kind of magecraft and forcibly changing her affinity, but I would have begrudgingly understood his magus logic, even if I find that logic reprehensible. However, Tokiomi dropped the ball even there by giving her to an old ghoul who had no interest in that. I mean, he could have just sucked up his pride and given her to the Edelfelts, who would have given her a reasonably good life, if Apo-verse is anything to go by. Speaking of, I wonder how that actually worked, given that the Edelfelt could only have 2 heirs to their Crest, and Luvia and her sister are already there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  12. #172
    全力後輩 - Zenryoku Kohai Altima of the Gates's Avatar
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    I don't think it was ever mentioned who the heirs were and Luvia's sister isn't talked about much anyway(do we even know how old she is?).
    She is blood related to them, so likely an instance where someone who wasn't would basically be Sola # 2, they figured something out if she is that happy.
    Nasu endorsed it that Luvia would be glad to have her, so who knows?

  13. #173
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    Luvia's sister is in CF, and I think in the mats, it's stated that she's happily engaged. That being said, the situation might be different in Apo worlds, since depending on canon sister's age, she might never have been born since Sakura would have easily fulfilled the role of co-heir, since she probably is compatible with their Crest, being blood-related and all. Also, are you saying that if Sakura wasn't blood-related to the Edelfelts and was not the co-heir, she'd be Sola #2, but happier? The wording is a tad bit confusing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  14. #174
    全力後輩 - Zenryoku Kohai Altima of the Gates's Avatar
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    I mixed it up a bit. But the Sola #2 comment would be if she was brought in but wasn't blood related.
    And I'll need to read through CF then.

  15. #175
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    At least, I've heard she appears in Case Files, though she may just be mentioned, and she's definitely in the materials that were recently translated on this site.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  16. #176
    鬼 Ogre-like You's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madarra View Post
    Whats the difference between teaching the mind or the body when all magecraft if just twitching your magic circuits in specific cycles via trained reflexes/self hypnosis
    Teaching the mind is learning how to use magecraft. (Rin learning how to put magical energy into jewels)
    Teaching the body is being turned into living conduit for magecraft. (Sakura becoming a Grail)
    Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
    Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
    Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ticeexcenny
    In my opinion you are not right. I am assured. Let's discuss it. Write to me in PM, we will talk.

  17. #177
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors TheSeaDragon's Avatar
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    Judging by his interactions with Kariya, tokiomi seems to desdain the matous and their magecraft, or maybe he just dsdain Kariya for being a "desertor" , but his reaction to the insects and stuff was pretty much "pathetic" , i guess he tought te matous were so pathetic that sakura would improve their line greatly and they should be eternally grateful?

    Zero is reallly a story with a lot of negative plot armor, because things needed to go wrong, really....Tokomi would not be interested in know why the matou who left came back and wich is his morivation? Even more so Aoi ?

    By the way , how you guys imagine tokiomis reaction if he found out everything about sakura? We know by word of god he would not mind the training itsef, but just the fact she was...not being actually trained at all. I certanly dont imagine a "what you did to my daughter, monster" but more a straight faced..." That was not the deal, the matou dont have honor" obviously, i dont mean honor as in chivalry , like diarmuid, but "mage honor" and he would not show much rage or any strong emotion for that matter, maybe challenge zouken to a duel or something
    Last edited by TheSeaDragon; January 13th, 2021 at 10:11 PM.

  18. #178
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    Neither are particularly curious types, and their shared willful ignorance lead to tragedy. Also, Tokiomi has a readily-made explanation as for why Kariya ran, that is that he couldn't handle the obligations of being a magus. This is the same guy who convinced himself the Grail chose Kirei to be his helper, knowing in some sense how ridiculous that notion seemed. That being said, he does seemingly have a kind side, since Rin had to get it from him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  19. #179
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors TheSeaDragon's Avatar
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    I know, for muchh crap i like to give him sometimes, he is quite caring for a nasu mage

    The tohsaka curse seems to be really a thing, lol, Rin should be thankful to have a lucky bastard like shiro at her side to counter it
    Last edited by TheSeaDragon; January 13th, 2021 at 10:17 PM.

  20. #180
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    Same. I will give him a ton of crap for his idiocy, but by mage standards, he's quite decent and his heart is sort of in the right place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

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