Sakura's problem: I still confuse about Magic Crest and Sealing designations.

[kohaku]

Summary:

- The Protection of family + Magic Crest will not really protect you if some Magus really want to attack you. ( Iselma family in Case File has very high position and more powerful than Tohsaka, and Atrum family doesn't care).

- You actually can split Magic Crest to many smaller parts, and give it to your children. Many family is Westerner use these small parts of their Magic Crest as the reward to any Magus loyal to them. The only trouble is the smaller Magic Crest, the weaker it is. And of course, only one of these children is the heir.

- You actually can teach Magecraft to many childs. Sola-Ui's case; Atrum family; Jibourou family; Aozaki clan suddenly stopped with Touko, and teach Aoko instead.
Many family just teach magecraft to one child, just to keeps magecraft in the secret. Many others don't really care.

- Even with Hollow element, you actually can study to control it by yourself - with the basic knowledge about magecraft, more than find someone know about Hollow to teach you.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Yeah you can split off parts of the Crest to branch families, but not the whole Crest and it's complete Mysteries, and doing so between siblings in the same family doesn't seem to be done. Also, for Sola, she was primarily used as a marriage candidate, and there is that whole thing with Bram going missing (?). As for Touko vs Aoko, the latter was designated heir over the former only AFTER she was found compatible with the Fifth, and remember the two siblings have been fighting for decades.

Also, you straight up ignore my response to the "heirs get attacked anyway". No shit they do, but they also have the resources of a family to fall back on, like the Iselmas did. Also, the attackers would technically be accountable to Law.

Yeah you can teach magecraft to multiple kids, but it does run the risk of infighting, which is already enough of a problem in the MA. Also

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Learning it is totally possible, but Sakura still did have to find a teacher, which you did say. However, Tokiomi's thing was that he couldn't raise Sakura completely away from magecraft, unlike what happened with Amelia Levitt in FSF, because she had too much potential and because Stando gravity. Also, he'd probably be unable to decide which girl should be heir.

[forumghost]

Yeah, it's a combination of a couple things:

1) Tokiomi having biases about how great #MagusLife is and wanting his Super-prodigy Children to be the best Magi they can be.

2) Tokiomi wanting them to have the Power and Political Pull of an established Magus family in their corner for when they get pulled into supernatural shenanigans because of weirdness factor.

Also, note that Zouken came to him. It's not like he just put Sakura up on his Ebay account. Zouken, (who btw had actually done a phenomenal job keeping how much of a monster he was under wraps, even his own family didn't know the whole of it) called him up and probably made a big show of how desperate the Matou were, playing on Tokiomi's concerns and preconception to convince him that Sakura would be a beloved princess under his care.

Of course this goes without saying, but Tokiomi is still an absolute shitlord for prioritizing Sakura 'reaching her potential' over what the girl actually wanted.

[kohaku]

Aoko-Touko's conflict begins with the way Aozaki clan treated Touko.


" If you study hard for 10 years, I will give you a PS5.". And suddenly, " sorry. I suddenly change my idea.".


Sakura-Rin's conflict because they misunderstanding each other, and because Rin is too coward to show her real feeling about her sister.


By the way,
-" my children may be killing each other if they don't love each other anymore."
- and " I should send my child to a corrupt vampire, and hope he will keep his promise.".
You think what decision is more dangerous?


I want to say that, " teach magecraft to your children" doesn't mean they will always have conflict with each other. Have many reasons that lead to the conflict. But Tokiomi actually doesn't care if his daughters kill each other. So, we shouldn't complain about it.

Also, you straight up ignore my response to the "heirs get attacked anyway". No shit they do, but they also have the resources of a family to fall back on, like the Iselmas did. Also, the attackers would technically be accountable to Law.

What exactly Tohsaka and Matou have after HGW4 to protect their heir?


- Tohsaka: a Workshop full of research and book about their magecraft. Rin is the only member of that family who still alive.
- Matou: a library of books, a worm pits, and a corrupt vampire.


Athram doesn't need a day to massacre them all and take both Sakura and Rin as his sex slave.


If your family is weak, your Magic Crest is weak. No Magus cares about it. They even don't care if it is the Grand family.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

He probably should have considered Sakura's feelings, and he might have been able to get away with keeping both kids, since Fuyuki is such a backwater by Association standards. That being said, he wasn't wrong to want both kids to have the backing of a family in case shit went down. He is a shitlord, but less so than most mages, and also mostly because he's also a short-sighted dumbass.

[kohaku]

I don't know why people keep trying to imagine that Tokiomi doesn't know anything about worm. ( Do you want to escape the brutal reality?)


Magecraft is secret. But it isn't too secret that " I can't imagine anything about it.".


- Zouken never goes to Eizbern Castle. But he can imagine that these experimental is very brutal.
- What Reines has about Matou? Just some information collected from HGW4. And she even can imagine Zouken's method ( Worms Crest). She keeps using it as an example of how terrible magecraft can be.
- Follow Magus's logic: the more power = the more torture. Even can't imagine what training the Iselmas did to their beautiful princess, Reine still concluse that " it is very inhuman" and compare it to Zouken's worms.


Tokiomi and his family live beside Zouken for 200 years. It is very funny when say " I don't know your method is put a thousand of worms in your heir's body." or " I know, but I though you put it is peaceful way.".


Rin doesn't know, yeah. But it is because she has to study everything by herself.

[forumghost]

Tokiomi knew that Sakura would have to endure a great deal of pain and suffering, and he was okay with that (which makes him an asshole, yes) because All Magi go through such things. Like how Rin has to take Drugs to Suppress the pain that the Crest gives her, that she describes as so bad she has considered cutting her own Arm off. Magi Society be fucked up like that.

He did not know that Zouken was actually Makiri Zolgen; a 500 year old Penis Vampire trying to mindbreak his Daughter. And he had no way of knowing about the old bastard's methods, because there hadn't been a proper Matou Magus around besides Zouken since at least World War 2, and Zouken spends all his time hiding in the attic because he can't leave the house easily because his body is breaking down.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I mean, even SHIROU had never actually met Zouken prior to Night 3 of FSN, and he didn't even know there was another resident aside from Sakura and Shinji. That's how much Zouken didn't show.

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If even El-Melloi II is okay with the idea of magi suffering immense pain as a fact of life, you know it's universal because he's as good as magi get. Speaking of which, I'd say Sakura did end up becoming an ideal magus on that front. She doesn't glorify her own pain, yet she soldiers through for a purpose greater than her own suffering. At least, that's sort of the case around the end of HF.

[kohaku]

Tokiomi knew that Sakura would have to endure a great deal of pain and suffering, and he was okay with that (which makes him an asshole, yes) because All Magi go through such things.

That is why Touko keeps call them " monster".

Even Nazi doctor, they can kill and experimental anyone exclude their own children. Magus is far more " better" than them.

He did not know that Zouken was actually Makiri Zolgen; a 500 year old Penis Vampire trying to mindbreak his Daughter. And he had no way of knowing about the old bastard's methods, because there hadn't been a proper Matou Magus around besides Zouken since at least World War 2, and Zouken spends all his time hiding in the attic because he can't leave the house easily because his body is breaking down.

Look at Kariya, he just around 3X years old. And I certainly that his parent weren't die just because of give birth their children.

So, why Reines can imagine what he Tokiomi can't?

And the main trouble is: even if he sees the worms pit, he will not change his mind. Because it is ok for Magus.

Well, now I understand Sakura actually included even Rin in a list of " everything among me is very scary".

I mean, even SHIROU had never actually met Zouken prior to Night 3 of FSN, and he didn't even know there was another resident aside from Sakura and Shinji. That's how much Zouken didn't show.

Shirou doesn't know Rin is Magus,too. He just an amateur.
Rin actually doesn't surprise when heard about Zouken.

If even El-Melloi II is okay with the idea of magi suffering immense pain as a fact of life, you know it's universal because he's as good as magi get. Speaking of which, I'd say Sakura did end up becoming an ideal magus on that front. She doesn't glorify her own pain, yet she soldiers through for a purpose greater than her own suffering. At least, that's sort of the case around the end of HF.

Now, we return to the topic " It is good for you" = "I really want it".
Imagine someone says to you " I will cut all of your limbs, and you will become superman.", I doubt you will love or say "thank you" to that guy.


Even Rin - Who sees Magus as the good guys and volunteers to practice Magecraft - doesn't have enough bravery to jump in that worm pit.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

That is why Touko keeps call them " monster".

Even Nazi doctor, they can kill and experimental anyone exclude their own children. Magus is far more " better" than them.



Look at Kariya, he just around 3X years old. And I certainly that his parent weren't die just because of give birth their children.

So, why Reines can imagine what he Tokiomi can't?

And the main trouble is: even if he sees the worms pit, he will not change his mind. Because it is ok for Magus.

Well, now I understand Sakura actually included even Rin in a list of " everything among me is very scary".



Shirou doesn't know Rin is Magus,too. He just an amateur.
Rin actually doesn't surprise when heard about Zouken.



Now, we return to the topic " It is good for you" = "I really want it".
Imagine someone says to you " I will cut all of your limbs, and you will become superman.", I doubt you will love or say "thank you" to that guy.


Even Rin - Who sees Magus as the good guys and volunteers to practice Magecraft - doesn't have enough bravery to jump in that worm pit.

I bring up Shirou because he went to the Matou household pretty frequently, yet never had a clue to his mere presence. Imagine what he could hide that he was far more motivated to hide, like exactly what his magecraft entailed.

Also, not having the guts to jump into the worm pit is part of the reason why Rin decides she's no good at being an ideal magus, among other things. Rin is a rather poor example of the ideal magus because she's obviously trying and failing to fake it to make it. To her credit, she eventually chooses her humanity/morality no matter the route. Also, I don't think Rin ever describes magi as good guys. She just thinks magecraft is fun, but freely admits that magi are monsters.

Of course, I'm not saying Tokiomi should be thanked for his actions. Matter of fact, he screwed up shit so bad with his arrogance and lack of foresight, that I'd punch him in the face for it. Of course, what he did to Sakura was strictly wrong from a moral perspective, but merely stupid from a magus' perspective. Yes, he would have accepted the worm pit so long as Sakura was actually being taught magecraft.

If we're talking personal opinion, I understand the ideal of magi, even if I think it allows magi to evade responsibility for the consequences of their actions, ignores their messy, human sides to their active detriment, and makes them generally elitist assholes.

[You]

Of course, what he did to Sakura was strictly wrong from a moral perspective, but merely stupid from a magus' perspective.

IMO
If Generic Magus A was watching Tokiomi, they would agree with the adoption.
After seeing Sakura's potential and sorcery trait wasted, say Tokiomi was a terrible father.
Then after seeing Sakura obtain a fragment of the 3rd in HF, say Tokiomi did good and should be proud.

So it depends.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I wonder if generic magus A would also point out that Sakura getting a fragment of the 3rd Magic is not something Tokiomi could have ever planned for, nor was it something Zouken planned for, thus meaning he has no involvement in that bit. Really, I think most magi would probably focus on Part 2.

[You]

I wonder if generic magus A would also point out that Sakura getting a fragment of the 3rd Magic is not something Tokiomi could have ever planned for, nor was it something Zouken planned for, thus meaning he has no involvement in that bit.

"The only thing to do in order to preserve both sisters' talents is to give one away for adoption. Old man Matō's request was a godsend. As a house that knows of the Holy Grail's existence, the possibility of reaching 'Akasha' is even higher. Even if I can't complete it, there's still Rin, and if Rin fails there's still Sakura; someone will always inherit the Tōsaka family's wish."

"You bastard..."

How can he speak of such a despairing truth with a still expression?

If they both walk the road leading to 'Akasha', then －

"...You want them to fight each other? Sister against sister?!"

Faced with Kariya's accusation, Tokiomi gave an unbidden laugh and nodded with a cold expression.

"Even if such a situation is to result, it is still happiness to the remnants of my house. If we succeed, the glory will be in our own hands; even if we fail, the glory will belong to our ancestral name. There is no such thing as a confrontation without sorrow."

tokiomi playing 5D chess with himself

[kohaku]

Also, not having the guts to jump into the worm pit is part of the reason why Rin decides she's no good at being an ideal magus, among other things. Rin is a rather poor example of the ideal magus because she's obviously trying and failing to fake it to make it. To her credit, she eventually chooses her humanity/morality no matter the route. Also, I don't think Rin ever describes magi as good guys. She just thinks magecraft is fun, but freely admits that magi are monsters.

I don't really remember Rin ever thinks like that.
During day 8 ( HF), she says something like that about Shinji. But I don't know if she actually include even herself in there.

"Then I'll say it for you. You just wanted to act like a magus. You're a failure and can't be a magus, so you wanted the Holy Grail to make you one.
You have no other goal. You're a coward that wanted proof to hide your powerlessness."
...
"Fine, this is the end, so I'll tell you.
Those who aim farther for others' sake. Those who think of others before themselves. ...And those who hate themselves more than anyone.
These are the qualities of a magus. There is a place you can't reach, no matter how much talent you have.
...Humph. I never thought anyone would meet this condition. This is a contradiction you can only have if you're born broken."

"Shinji. You're a good example of someone who nurtures a needless inferiority complex by despising others. You love yourself so much that you believe everyone else is below you, even when they are superior in every way.
...You're empty inside. The only one who thinks you're full is you, and you're just like a balloon. Your destination changes depending on the wind."

[Altima of the Gates]

I wonder if generic magus A would also point out that Sakura getting a fragment of the 3rd Magic is not something Tokiomi could have ever planned for, nor was it something Zouken planned for, thus meaning he has no involvement in that bit. Really, I think most magi would probably focus on Part 2.

As You shows with the quote, its him living vicariously through them, or making them take on his legacy, regardless of his spiel about wanting them to choose for themselves.
Though it is pretty shameful to say that for someone you pretty much decided to cut all ties with, amd who you didn't leave anything. There was a pretty poignant scene in Hollow where Sakura looks around the Tohsaka manor and Shirou catches her in a daze.
It is funny that any interaction between them in any media is him just failing with Sakura, and Sakura just being done with him, but even when he flubs up, Rin is still starry eyed "daddy dearest" beaming at him.

[forumghost]

Yeah, Rin has a very romanticized notion of who he was. Not surprising since she was a seven year old girl when he died.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Yeah, Rin has a very romanticized notion of who he was. Not surprising since she was a seven year old girl when he died.

Basically this. I'd assume as she gets older and has to deal with some of the same issues that she'd see her father was less than impressive as a person and family head. As a magus, he was a little too naive, but impressively by-the-book, so I don't think Rin could fault him strictly from that view, unless of course she decides to reject that way of living, which I was always under the impression she sort of does regardless of route.

[TheSeaDragon]

I wish the sisters story and relationship got more attention , but its always the shipping . I feel some Rin fans dont care because it gets on the way of "their" ship

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

As You shows with the quote, its him living vicariously through them, or making them take on his legacy, regardless of his spiel about wanting them to choose for themselves.
Though it is pretty shameful to say that for someone you pretty much decided to cut all ties with, amd who you didn't leave anything. There was a pretty poignant scene in Hollow where Sakura looks around the Tohsaka manor and Shirou catches her in a daze.
It is funny that any interaction between them in any media is him just failing with Sakura, and Sakura just being done with him, but even when he flubs up, Rin is still starry eyed "daddy dearest" beaming at him.

Didn't Nasu or Urobuchi say in some interview that Tokiomi dying early was actually a good thing for Rin because otherwise she would have grown up colder or have been unhappy enough to leave? I dunno, this could be fanon.

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I wish the sisters story and relationship got more attention , but its always the shipping . I feel some Rin fans dont care because it gets on the way of "their" ship

I ship Shirou x Rin, but I also wish we got more Rin and Sakura sister content, as well as Shirou being a good brother-in-law.

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It's kind of like how I friendship Saber with Shirou and Rin.

[Menwearpink]

Whats the difference between teaching the mind or the body when all magecraft if just twitching your magic circuits in specific cycles via trained reflexes/self hypnosis

I dunno computation power of the brain and lots of occultist and formula knowledge and theory is pretty important to a magus.