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Thread: Sakura's problem: I still confuse about Magic Crest and Sealing designations.

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    吸血鬼 Vampire kohaku's Avatar
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    Sakura's problem: I still confuse about Magic Crest and Sealing designations.

    To say more clearly about what I'm mentioning:

    Tokiomi in FZ try to justice his idea " send Sakura away" with the reason:

    - She and Rin can get Sealing Designations because they are very special.

    And he thinks the only ways to protect them are:
    - Give them Magic Crest.
    - Ask some other clan to adopt/ protect them.

    However, follow Norikata's case and Rin's. I don't think both of these solutions have any effection in protect them.
    · Norikata got the Magic Crest. But they still hunt him.
    · Tohsaka family was almost ruined after Tokiomi's death. No one really there to protect Rin, actually. But Mage Association still leaves her alone.

    I think the main goal to protect Sakura and Rin is to teach them how to control their power. If they can keep it in secret, no one will hunt him because they don't really know about these daughters. Mage Association usually only hunt someone who can't keep the secret about Magecraft.


    ---------------------


    When someone tries to explain how important Sakura needs the Magic Crest. I feel confused,too.
    Follow my knowledge:

    - Magic Crest:
    + includes many spells of the older ancestors. If you have a Magic Crest, you can use all of these spells while no need to cost more time studying/ training how to use it.
    + increases your number of Magic Circuit. So you can use more Mana to cast the spell. Follow my knowledge, it actually doesn't help increase your Life Force. If your maximum MP is 500, Magic Circuit can’t support more than it for you to cast the spell. So, too many Magic Circuit is useless,too.

    Then?
    How the Magic Crest helps Sakura controls her power ( elements: Hollow)?
    · You got more Magic Circuit while still don't know how to control your power. It just makes you more dangerous and out of control.
    · I really doubt have any knowledge about Hollow inside both Tohsaka and Matou's Magic Crest.
    · Kiritsugu's father has Magic Crest, and Caliron Observatory still hunts him. So, both the Magic Crest and the family's protection don't work at all?
    So. How the Magic Crest can help Sakura controls and practices her power? And protect her from the Mage Association?
    -------------------------




    About Sealing Designations:

    We know that they will capture you, keep you alive and use you as their experimental thing. However. We don't really know how the Caliron Observatory will decide who is Sealing Designation to hunt.

    Although Sakura's Hollow may be very strange, but she isn't the only human who has that elements. If they really want to hunt someone who has Hollow element, why not begin with Trisha Fellows?

    Follow my knowledge, both Shirou and Rin actually more special than even Sakura. No one has enough five elements as Rin. And Shirou is the only one who have element Sword until now. Why both of them can live in peace? They even go to Clock Tower to study?

    And Kiritsugu's father is hunted by his research more than his body, right?
    Can everyone explain to me? Thank you.

  2. #2
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Comun's Avatar
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    Noritaka wasn't designated for sealing because he became too interesting of a case study, it was because he threatened the preservation of Mystery by causing an uncontrolled vampire outbreak.

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    The Plesioth Hip Check of life Deathhappens's Avatar
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    It's not about having a Crest or not having it, it's about being a trained magus versus being a research subject. Rin got years of training under Tokiomi and (reluctantly) Kirei, so she knows how to make use of and control her abilities. Sakura got mindbroken and experimented on by Zouken, exactly what Tokiomi feared would happen if she was left in ignorance (though at lesst she was kept alive and reasonably intact).

    Shirou's body isn't really "interesting" from a magus perspective, UBW/his affinity for projection are just consequences of him being fucked in the head, and that's not something you can yank out of him to experiment with. Also, crappy though he may be he entered the Clock Tower with Rin as a proper magus (presumably under Waver's auspices or at least consideration) so again nobody is going to just pick him up off the street.

    Noritaka's issue wasn't that he was especially interesting to study, it was that he was researching immortality (a taboo subject) and causing zombie outbreaks as he went (the reason the a subject is taboo to begin with).
    Last edited by Deathhappens; December 8th, 2020 at 02:33 PM.
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    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Menwearpink's Avatar
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    well he did have a sealing designate.

    But no they aren't going super out of their way to track him down if he isn't (or rather Shirley) causing big problems. But that's generally how it is with hermit types as F/HA talks about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    Noritaka wasn't designated for sealing because he became too interesting of a case study, it was because he threatened the preservation of Mystery by causing an uncontrolled vampire outbreak.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Noritaka's issue wasn't that he was especially interesting to study, it was that he was researching immortality (a taboo subject) and causing zombie outbreaks as he went (the reason the a subject is taboo to begin with).
    He got designated for sealing exactly because he was especially interesting to study
    Quote Originally Posted by zero mats
    Emiya Kiritsugu’s father. A genius who, by perfecting his family’s internal (small-scale) time manipulation sorcery, managed to earn a sealing designation despite being a mere fourth generation magus.
    He evaded capture by the Association for over twenty years, and finally ended up hiding himself away on a small island in the tropics. His wife was killed by pursuers from the Association, but Kiritsugu had only just been born at the time and so has no memory of the incident.
    The sorcery of the Emiya family involves accelerating or stagnating the flow of time within a reality marble, without interference from the world. Norikata plumbed the depths of this sorcery, and hatched a scheme to shrink a boundary field until the resistance was almost zero, then infinitely accelerate time within it. His belief was that by observing the end of the universe, he could arrive at the “Root” that lay beyond it.
    He got it because he was able to figure a way to make time accelerate infinitely. What happened in the island has nothing to do with the reason for his initial designation.
    Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
    Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
    Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.
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    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six forumghost's Avatar
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    Ah yes, the old Magus catch 22.

    If you don't find a path to the Root, you're a loser poser.
    If you do find a path to the Root, you get a Sealing Designation because people want to steal your research.

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    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Comun's Avatar
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    infinitely accelerate time within it. His belief was that by observing the end of the universe, he could arrive at the “Root” that lay beyond it.
    Huh, that sounds very similar to what Douman was pushing Altjuna into doing. Did Heian follow up on that in any way?

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    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Menwearpink's Avatar
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    Its Made in Heaven basically.

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    吸血鬼 Vampire kohaku's Avatar
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    It's not about having a Crest or not having it, it's about being a trained magus versus being a research subject. Rin got years of training under Tokiomi and (reluctantly) Kirei, so she knows how to make use of and control her abilities. Sakura got mindbroken and experimented on by Zouken, exactly what Tokiomi feared would happen if she was left in ignorance (though at lesst she was kept alive and reasonably intact).
    hmm.

    So, what is he really mean when saying:

    "
    Apart from understanding and practicing the way of magecraft themselves, there are no other ways to deal with the magical powers hidden in the blood of Tokiomi’s daughters. Moreover, the protection of the Tōsaka house can only be endowed on one of them.

    ...

    The one who did not become the inheritor would get mired in all kinds of odd evens due to her own blood, and trouble bound find her. If the Association found this kind of ‘ordinary humans’, those guys would definitely gladly put her in formaldehyde as a specimen in the name of ‘protection’."

    ???
    - He says " the protection of the Tōsaka house can only be endowed on one of them"
    - He says "If the Association found this kind of ‘ordinary humans’, those guys would definitely gladly put her in formaldehyde as a specimen in the name of ‘protection’.

    - > Rin live alone during 10 years. No one protects her. And MA still not hunts her.

    ---------------------

    Follow my knowledge, the main goal actually is: teach his daughters how to use and control their power, and keep it secret from the normal sociaty. If they don't cause mess, no one hunt them.

    But if it is the goal, while he doesn't find someone knows about Hollow to teach Sakura, instead send her to family who have Element is Water, and a vampire only know about...worms??? How she can controls or uses her power with that setting???
    Last edited by kohaku; December 8th, 2020 at 07:00 PM.

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    死徒 Dead Apostle jennajayfeather's Avatar
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    I feel this is one of those things that like probably made logical sense at the time, but as Fate expanded and we learned more about magus society, it made less sense on Tokiomi's part and just feels like it was to get Sakura into the Matou's.

    It still works for the story if you think Tokiomi's decision stemmed from flaws like pride & ignorance.

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    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six madarra's Avatar
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    No, you see, Tokiomis problem was that Sakuras magic skill would basically result in her being suporting cast in a shonen anime. And then that shonen anime would reach the arc where the main characters would be considered on the wrong side of magic police/the association.
    He just didnt believe they could survive that arc
    Also secret demons hidden in the magic crest probably get you passed over for sealing designations or formaldehyde tubing

    I wonder if Barbatos was originally supposed to be in Shinji/Shinji's mom rather than Zouken cuz all we know about her was that she was some sort of 'carrier'

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    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Menwearpink's Avatar
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    Rin’s also the second owner so. Ownership positions probably give you more protection or weight than just being a random kid.

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    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six
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    Wasn't Tokiomi also thinking of Sakura also having a chance to get involved in the Grail War?l, if she were given to the Matou?

    Truth be told, I wonder if it would've been simply better to have just married her off to someone.

    Frankly, with what has been revealed in FHA & Case Files, I wonder if Tokiomi was possibly overly paranoid about Sakura's potential fate, especially regarding Sealing Designations.

    Most of them are essentially left alone due to both a backlog and due them not threatening to accidentally reveal magic right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Shirou's body isn't really "interesting" from a magus perspective, UBW/his affinity for projection are just consequences of him being fucked in the head, and that's not something you can yank out of him to experiment with. Also, crappy though he may be he entered the Clock Tower with Rin as a proper magus (presumably under Waver's auspices or at least consideration) so again nobody is going to just pick him up off the street.
    Then why is Rin always so adamant about either him or Sakura and her (in HF True) never brewthing a word about his abilities or anything? What is she afraid of there if a Sealing Designation isn't much of an issue?

    Also his RM has nothing to do with his headspace. Just has to do with his Element being changed to match his Origin. PTSD or not, he'd still have it as long as he's saved via Avalon I think.
    Last edited by warellis; December 8th, 2020 at 11:16 PM.

  14. #14
    The Plesioth Hip Check of life Deathhappens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    He got designated for sealing exactly because he was especially interesting to study


    He got it because he was able to figure a way to make time accelerate infinitely. What happened in the island has nothing to do with the reason for his initial designation.
    My bad, I'd forgotten about that bit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by warellis View Post
    Wasn't Tokiomi also thinking of Sakura also having a chance to get involved in the Grail War?l, if she were given to the Matou?

    Truth be told, I wonder if it would've been simply better to have just married her off to someone.

    Frankly, with what has been revealed in FHA & Case Files, I wonder if Tokiomi was possibly overly paranoid about Sakura's potential fate, especially regarding Sealing Designations.

    Most of them are essentially left alone due to both a backlog and due them not threatening to accidentally reveal magic right?Then why is Rin always so adamant about either him or Sakura and her (in HF True) never brewthing a word about his abilities or anything? What is she afraid of there if a Sealing Designation isn't much of an issue?

    Also his RM has nothing to do with his headspace. Just has to do with his Element being changed to match his Origin. PTSD or not, he'd still have it as long as he's saved via Avalon I think.
    I'm pretty sure it's the other way around and his Element being changed is nothing but an interesting footnote, but I don't really feel like going back to check. I definitely remember his perspective being so abnormal being one of the key prerequisites to manifest UBW, though.

    As for HF True, that's a different Shirou, one who has had the arm of a Heroic Spirit grafted on to him and directly received knowledge from it, as well as one who actually managed to manifest the Jewel Sword of Zelretch (which btw I don't remember what happened to, did it end up getting destroyed?). That last bit alone is knowledge most magi would kill to get.
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    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Comun's Avatar
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    The Jewel Sword that Shirou project is just that, a projection. Not real. The world deletes it there’s no magical energy keeping it in place, like it does with every other sword Shirou projects, because they’re not supposed to be there.

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    The Plesioth Hip Check of life Deathhappens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kohaku View Post
    hmm.

    So, what is he really mean when saying:

    "
    Apart from understanding and practicing the way of magecraft themselves, there are no other ways to deal with the magical powers hidden in the blood of Tokiomi’s daughters. Moreover, the protection of the Tōsaka house can only be endowed on one of them.

    ...

    The one who did not become the inheritor would get mired in all kinds of odd evens due to her own blood, and trouble bound find her. If the Association found this kind of ‘ordinary humans’, those guys would definitely gladly put her in formaldehyde as a specimen in the name of ‘protection’."

    ???
    - He says " the protection of the Tōsaka house can only be endowed on one of them"
    - He says "If the Association found this kind of ‘ordinary humans’, those guys would definitely gladly put her in formaldehyde as a specimen in the name of ‘protection’.

    - > Rin live alone during 10 years. No one protects her. And MA still not hunts her.

    ---------------------

    Follow my knowledge, the main goal actually is: teach his daughters how to use and control their power, and keep it secret from the normal sociaty. If they don't cause mess, no one hunt them.

    But if it is the goal, while he doesn't find someone knows about Hollow to teach Sakura, instead send her to family who have Element is Water, and a vampire only know about...worms??? How she can controls or uses her power with that setting???
    I mean, it's not that complicated. Because Tokiomi is fucking stupid a traditional magus, he's stuck in the mindset that only one of them can be taught and be the proper heir of the Tohsaka house and the other one must be left without knowledge of magecraft, because there's only one Magic Crest and jealousy something something. So the one wandering around as a common civilian with a rare magical constitution is basically a walking "please experiment on me" sign to other magi.


    Meanwhile Rin was not left to fend on her own for ten years, Kirei took care of her and taught her how to use Magecraft even after Tokiomi kicked the bucket (sidenote I would kill for a spinoff detailing how chibi Rin dealt with her dad dying, mother being assaulted and going insane, and Kirei being her de facto new guardian all in the span of a couple days).
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    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six madarra's Avatar
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    Rin self destructs the jewel sword for the sake/lack of a flashbang and then fails to follow through on killing Sakura.

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    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    My bad, I'd forgotten about that bit.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I'm pretty sure it's the other way around and his Element being changed is nothing but an interesting footnote, but I don't really feel like going back to check. I definitely remember his perspective being so abnormal being one of the key prerequisites to manifest UBW, though.

    As for HF True, that's a different Shirou, one who has had the arm of a Heroic Spirit grafted on to him and directly received knowledge from it, as well as one who actually managed to manifest the Jewel Sword of Zelretch (which btw I don't remember what happened to, did it end up getting destroyed?). That last bit alone is knowledge most magi would kill to get.
    The idea Shirou needs to be crazy to manifest UBW is fanon, made up people who mistook Rin telling Shirou his way of life was distorted as meaning somehow he had a "distortion."

    And besides, if PTSD is all that is required to have a Reality Marble manifest, how come many magi don't have them when their thought processes are also pretty twisted?
    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    The Jewel Sword that Shirou project is just that, a projection. Not real. The world deletes it there’s no magical energy keeping it in place, like it does with every other sword Shirou projects, because they’re not supposed to be there.
    No that's fanon. Shirou's Projections are noted in-story as just sticking around. For example the junk he made in his shed, when he was still using that crappy Nerve Circuit thing, are months old, and Rin is absolutely pissed when she sees them because thye overturn everything she understands about Projection.

  19. #19
    Greatness, at any cost mAc Chaos's Avatar
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    I assume Rin's protection was Kotomine. Hell, you could have all sorts of stuff happening in that 10 year gap with Rin and Kotomine having to deal with random magi or events on their land.
    He never sleeps. He never dies.

    Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.

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    吸血鬼 Vampire kohaku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    I mean, it's not that complicated. Because Tokiomi is fucking stupid a traditional magus, he's stuck in the mindset that only one of them can be taught and be the proper heir of the Tohsaka house and the other one must be left without knowledge of magecraft, because there's only one Magic Crest and jealousy something something. So the one wandering around as a common civilian with a rare magical constitution is basically a walking "please experiment on me" sign to other magi.


    Meanwhile Rin was not left to fend on her own for ten years, Kirei took care of her and taught her how to use Magecraft even after Tokiomi kicked the bucket (sidenote I would kill for a spinoff detailing how chibi Rin dealt with her dad dying, mother being assaulted and going insane, and Kirei being her de facto new guardian all in the span of a couple days).


    I know. I mean that protection isn't good enough to protect her from MA.
    - Tohsaka now just the name left. She is the only one remaining.
    - Kirei + Church may be protecting her, but they will not try hard if everything becomes more terrible.


    If MA's law is against the idea of capture the clan's heir. They will just do it follow the dirty way ( " the Tohsaka's heir suddenly disappear. We still can't find who is kidnapped that poor girl.").


    = > So, everyone now accepts that Tokiomi was actually overly paranoid about Sakura's potential fate ( Sealing Designations)?

    ------------------------

    by the way.
    talking about the children's relationship under Magus family. one among the reasons of anyone want to protect Tokiomi:
    - Children of the Magus family always conflict and try to kill each other, because of Magic Crest.


    https://www.facebook.com/TMTHEORY/photos/is-tokiomi-a-good-dad-a-discussionlong-answer-short-i-think-he-isnow-the-long-an/2413919302216792/


    However, when I read Case Files, I don't see everything follow that way at all.


    Magic Crest is precious, of course. But many Magus still become the powerful while doesn't have Magic Crest. Some guys fight against their own brother/sister to take MC, some other refuses it ( Heine) or doesn't care about it ( Jibourou).


    I think Magic Crest is the same as the King's crown. Yeah, many princes usually kill each other because of it, but not everyone. Some other princes simply give up it, or even refuse it. So, the conflict between Magus's children isn't always happening in every case.



    • Why Rin - Sakura hated each other? It is because they misunderstood each other. Sakura very loves Rin, but she thinks Rin hates her. Rin very love Sakura, but she doesn't know how to explain her feeling.
    • Aozaki sisters are a different case. They actually don't grow up together, don't really have a close relationship. Touko is raised to receive MC, and their grandfather suddenly give it to Aoko. It is normal when Touko finally hate Aoko because of that.



    Many Magus use their remain child for political marriage. But it isn't the only way to go,too. Not every Magus care about improve their children's Magic Circuits. Tokiomi finally married Aoi, a woman from the normal family ( who give up their way as Magus from long ago).


    = > I think Tokiomi is wrong when say that his daughters don't have any way to live as the normal human. They total can. They only need to learn how to manage their power, and hide it from the society and MA.

    Last edited by kohaku; December 9th, 2020 at 04:09 AM.

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