FZ and FSN’s information conflicts to each other about Tokiomi?

[kohaku]

Follow FZ, Tokiomi:
- Fears that his daughters will got Sealing Designations.
- Wants both of his daughters to become the great Magus follow their talents.
- Want to increase the Tohsaka’s chance to win HGW ( Matou adopts Sakura. It means Tohsaka now got 2/7 slots of HGW’s players).
Follow Gen’s interview, Tokiomi:
- Ok with everything Zouken will do, as long as Sakura will become the great Magus. ( His logic: You say if you gangrape my daughter, take her virgin, torture her, she will become the superman? Amazing. Let do it.).


The way Tokiomi says about Zouken in FZ makes us imagine that he actually doesn’t really know well about Zouken. Suddenly, one day, Zouken tells him that he wants to adopt one of Tohsaka’s daughter. Tokiomi so excited that he called it a “ godsend” and doesn’t think anything else.




However, follow FSN:
- Kirei says that Tokiomi know very deeply about Zouken. He even said the Kirei that Zouken is a very awful, horrible vampire,… and … It shows that even Tokiomi never think about Zouken follow positive way.
- Zouken tells Shirou that he and Tokiomi actually cooperated with each other. They both seek to the immortal, they both accept to become the monster, and they both accepted to use Sakura as the “ experimental” to achieve their goal.
- > It seems like both Zouken and Tokiomi think about Black Grail even before HGW4, before even when Zouken got enough resources to create it ( after HGW4).


So. Isn’t this information conflicts with each other???

[forumghost]

Food for thought- Maybe the fallen Priest trying to bring about the apocalypse and the 500 year old Penis-Worm-Vampire with soul dementia aren't the most reliable of sources.

Also, why did you start a new thread for this?

[kohaku]

Food for thought- Maybe the fallen Priest trying to bring about the apocalypse and the 500 year old Penis-Worm-Vampire with soul dementia aren't the most reliable of sources.

Also, why did you start a new thread for this?

They don't have any reason to lie about that, in that situation.

... I think this question is off-topic compare to the question about Magic Crest and Sealing Designation?

[Comun]

He meant that you should use the questions thread instead of opening new ones.

[ItsaRandomUsername]

They're just different continuities, don't worry about it, bruh.

[warellis]

They don't have any reason to lie about that, in that situation.

... I think this question is off-topic compare to the question about Magic Crest and Sealing Designation?

Why wouldn't they lie about it? I'm surprised you're taking Kirei & Zouken's words at face value. They have tons of reasons to lie through their teeth easily.

[JusticeAmongSwords]

Well, it could as well be a contradiction. F/SN came out before the F/Z light novel and both were written by different people. F/SN gives a very brief overview of the 4th HGW, information is bound to contradict at that point.

Also, I too think putting full trust onto Kirei's and Zouken's words is a long shot.

[Altima of the Gates]

I mean, they aren't lying, uf they aren't telling the full truth. Tokiomi is just so much in the "being a magus" is great sauce that he would swallow that Zolgen with totally, no bullshit, want to make Sakura a superstar, but then he said lol nope and just experimented on her.
Given he wanted her to be the best to protect her, as he said in Zero, the old mummy spinning lies must have just passed over his bullshit scanner that is just a little broken at the moment.
It isn't untrue that he has an inhuman way of thinking, since he thinks that bug usage is fine, regards of the methods, as long as it makes her strong, so technically not a lie. Rin herself tried to rationalize it when she saw it that it was no big deal if you could get results from it.
With Kirei, he knows about Zouken since iirc Tokiomi talked to Kirei about it during their talks about their war plans, that the Makiri pursue their worldly ends and described it as falling from grace. He also isn't surprised by Kariya's bug usage, only that he looked like a hobo. Do the math. In his mind Sakura was gonna be the Bug Queen and be all elegant and shit, and Kariya is just a hater, so he wouldn't listen.

I think they even mentioned in one of the material books that both Aoi and Tokiomi have a distortion inside themselves that would enable such tragedy in their family to occur. They just kinda parody it now in things like Capsule Servant that he is just a bumbling dandy papa. Aoi they probably couldn't do the humor for it well, as it would basically be the equivalent of a woman being happy that her role is to be barefoot and pregnant and make about 5 super-powered kids before cooking pie in the kitchen. Though the drama cd with her and Tokiomi had the 70s sitcom feel down.

[Tobias]

People used to believe Kirei never lied at all until all those times he got caught lying started cropping up.

bonus: the reason they believed that was because kirei said so, and liars never tell people to believe their lies, believe me.

[mAc Chaos]

Starting a thread for an in depth discussion is fine and should be encouraged so the topic isn’t quickly buried. Not everyone is in the question thread all the time either—I only saw this because it has its own topic.

Now this bit about Tokiomi knowledge of the black grail is interesting—this I never heard before. Where was that from?

We shouldn’t just assume Kirie is lying though—usually when someone lies it’s pointed out later or lampshaded in some way.

[kohaku]

Starting a thread for an in depth discussion is fine and should be encouraged so the topic isn’t quickly buried. Not everyone is in the question thread all the time either—I only saw this because it has its own topic.

Now this bit about Tokiomi knowledge of the black grail is interesting—this I never heard before. Where was that from?

We shouldn’t just assume Kirie is lying though—usually when someone lies it’s pointed out later or lampshaded in some way.

at the day 13 - HF route. When Shirou and Zouken talking with each other about the experimental.

Usually, You will not get your idea from when you received enough everything to make it. We have the idea first, and find the resource to develop your plan later.


Exp: The WW1 begin in 1914. However, the German thinks/ planned about that idea from very long ago. They just wait for the change to begin the war.


Look at Zouken's idea. He just wants to make the improved version of Eizbern's hommuculi ( Another Grail). He maybe have that idea from long ago, and Tokiomi shares this plan. No matter what, it really helps his daughter " stronger". But they still need to find some more resources for his experiment. Zouken only collected the last resource at the end of HGW4.

[Altima of the Gates]

Now that last part isn't true, only Zouken seems to have acknowledged the corruption in the grail from Zero's time, its supposed to be important that he scampered off with the remnants of Iri's vessel while everyone was ignorant. He was the dude that wondered if the other two families had fallen to allow the grail to become corrupt. Tokiomi was ignorant of that, and its unknown if the Einzberns just didn't know or didn't give a damn, but Ilya found out early on in HF and just said fuck it, that's my role. You get to see that early on if you get one bad end, where she says she will use Shirou's soul as blackmail for Sakura, just not mentioning Sakura's name but its pretty obvious who she means.