What if the sisters were switched?

[TheSeaDragon]

Like, for some reason, Rin is the one adopted by the matous and sakura stays as the tohsaka heir. I dont think they will just just..become each other , they are different indiviuals and Rin would be a quite old kid at the time.

[Tobias]

The HF route would have been better and the UBW route would have been worse

[TheSeaDragon]

funny because HF is already better than UBW, or at least the rute high points are higher

[forumghost]

funny because HF is already better than UBW, or at least the rute high points are higher

The Problem with HF is consistency. The high points are really high, but the low points are probably the lowest of all 3 Routes. Also pacing. All of the cool shit happens in the last like, 1/4 of the Route.

As for the actual question, It's hard to say. Rin was only a year older then Sakura (5 as opposed to 4) so I don't think either of them are mentally/emotionally developed enough to say how they would Change. Rin could wind up just like Sakura did, she could be better, she could be worse.

Rin's Alignment (5 elements) would make her better suited for the Matou Magic, which in theory might make her adapt better, but Zouken isn't actually interested in teaching, so that's moot.

More relevant is that without Sakura's natural Imaginary Element, the Shadow probably would be less effective as an anti-Servant weapon.

[Maltese]

If I recall correctly, some of The Shadow's properties were from Sakura having Water stacked over Imaginary Numbers, so if Rin became the Black Grail, her Id monster would probably work a bit differently. Since Water is part of her affinity, she'd probably be able to use some magecraft, so it'd be less like "forcing a bird to learn to swim" and more like "forcing a frog to only swim" or something. Probably wouldn't be good for Shinji's ego, to have a sister of the same age who is potentially very good with magecraft instead of an imouto who can usually do like a single attack.

[TheSeaDragon]

If I recall correctly, some of The Shadow's properties were from Sakura having Water stacked over Imaginary Numbers, so if Rin became the Black Grail, her Id monster would probably work a bit differently. Since Water is part of her affinity, she'd probably be able to use some magecraft, so it'd be less like "forcing a bird to learn to swim" and more like "forcing a frog to only swim" or something. Probably wouldn't be good for Shinji's ego, to have a sister of the same age who is potentially very good with magecraft instead of an imouto who can usually do like a single attack.

im well aware, my question is not "what if rin was the black grail" is "what if rin was a matou and sakura a tohsaka ".

[Comun]

The Femme Fatale bad end is all about Sakura's claim that Rin lacks Sakura's characteristic resilience, that Rin wouldn't have been able to survive what Sakura's been through. Taking the claim as fact (it's very easy to argue that Sakura doesn't know Rin well enough to tell, but I'm just trying to make a crazy fanfic premise, so bear with it) and assuming Rin still isn't dead by the time of /Zero, that part wouldn't play out too differently. Even assuming Rin is already dead by /Zero, I don't think that would change anything, other than Kariya's stated motivation being revenge instead of rescue.

Now /stay Night would be a completely different beast. Rin would definitely be already dead by this point, and Sakura Toosaka would have being raised with the mage pride Sakura Matou lacks. Sakura would be proper owner of Rin's pendant in this scenario, and the pendant's connection with Archer from the other timeline. Sakura's Archer fights Cu, Shirou witness them and gets killed, usual business. Now here's where Rin normally heals Shirou, but that's something she did out of a combination of her caring of his bond with Sakura, and her nature of not tolerating unfair treatment. The former doesn't exist in this timeline since there's no living Rin, and Sakura lacks the latter. I don't think Sakura would heal Shirou.

Following this scenario, we get three very major differences:
1) Without Shirou, Archer loses his ulterior motives and focuses fully on Sakura. There's a very interesting character arc to be had with him trying reconcile this Sakura Toosaka he sees with the Sakura Matou he knows.
2) Shinji's Servant would need to be summoned by Zouken instead of Sakura, so it wouldn't be Medusa. I doesn't even need to be Rider, even. Zouken could give Shinji, I dunno, Saber Fionn because he formed a bond with Lancer Fionn in the 3rd War. Cue epic battle between Ireland's two greatest heroes.
3) Without Shirou, there's no 7th Master, which would require Kotomine contacting the Clock Tower to ask for one more guy. Case Files established Waver was dying to hear these news, so he'd take the first flight to Fuyuki and get his Saber or Rider Iskandar depending on which Class Shinji took (I say as if I don't know that the laws of narrative causality dictates he gets Rider).

I won't get into how this Grail War would play out because the 3 routes are very arbitrary about who makes the first move in each of them, and I guess I already wrote enough to prove my point that changing the personality of main characters would change the story completely. If anyone wants to take this premise further and talk about how Atlas' Contract and Grand Roll would change with Waver getting to meet Iskandar mid-Case Files and potentially dying there, be my guest. Talk about how this affects Flat's participation in /strange Fake while you're at it.

[TheSeaDragon]

Can we take Dark sakura claims about Rin as a fact ? Whatever sister zouken takes, he would see them as an asset, he would break rin like he did sakura, but i dont see him let her die. Also, Sakura Tohsaka would not care her sister died ? Rin watched over her and cared to the point of heal shirou

I read some fan fics about this but usually not finished and not specially great , the usually made sakura literally rin but a bit less tsun and Rin varies , but she is usually eiter emotionless, like sakura never go past her zero state, or a ruthless bitch who endured everything much more

[Comun]

Can we take Dark sakura claims about Rin as a fact?

I said in the original post that we can't. But the alternative would have them too similar to each other to make a difference, I think.

Whatever sister zouken takes, he would see them as an asset, he would break rin like he did sakura, but i dont see him let her die.

I don't think either Zouken or kid Sakura have the means to stop a kid from commiting suicide.

Also, Sakura Tohsaka would not care her sister died ? Rin watched over her and cared to the point of heal shirou

I was actually going with the idea that Rin died before the point where the sisters met Shirou, so there would be no connection beyond "Oh, that's the guy doing high jumps". It be the death of a random stranger who isn't even from Sakura's class since she's one year younger. Sorry I didn't clarify that well enough.

[TheSeaDragon]

I said in the original post that we can't. But the alternative would have them too similar to each other to make a difference, I think.



I don't think either Zouken or kid Sakura have the means to stop a kid from commiting suicide.



I was actually going with the idea that Rin died before the point where the sisters met Shirou, so there would be no connection beyond "Oh, that's the guy doing high jumps". It be the death of a random stranger who isn't even from Sakura's class since she's one year younger. Sorry I didn't clarify that well enough.

Ah, so in yor scenario, Kid rin would commit suicide even before Zero? Thats Dark

But you are right, in case Rin holds on, they maybe would end too similar to each other, except the shadow would not be a thing, i guess, Rins darkness would take a different form. Also, Rin is not shiros Kouhai, in any case, that would affect their possible dynamic, he still would be sakuras sempai, but i dont see tohsaka calling him like that, it likely would be still "emiya kun"

[Deathhappens]

The Femme Fatale bad end is all about Sakura's claim that Rin lacks Sakura's characteristic resilience, that Rin wouldn't have been able to survive what Sakura's been through. Taking the claim as fact (it's very easy to argue that Sakura doesn't know Rin well enough to tell, but I'm just trying to make a crazy fanfic premise, so bear with it) and assuming Rin still isn't dead by the time of /Zero, that part wouldn't play out too differently. Even assuming Rin is already dead by /Zero, I don't think that would change anything, other than Kariya's stated motivation being revenge instead of rescue.

Now /stay Night would be a completely different beast. Rin would definitely be already dead by this point, and Sakura Toosaka would have being raised with the mage pride Sakura Matou lacks. Sakura would be proper owner of Rin's pendant in this scenario, and the pendant's connection with Archer from the other timeline. Sakura's Archer fights Cu, Shirou witness them and gets killed, usual business. Now here's where Rin normally heals Shirou, but that's something she did out of a combination of her caring of his bond with Sakura, and her nature of not tolerating unfair treatment. The former doesn't exist in this timeline since there's no living Rin, and Sakura lacks the latter. I don't think Sakura would heal Shirou.

Following this scenario, we get three very major differences:
1) Without Shirou, Archer loses his ulterior motives and focuses fully on Sakura. There's a very interesting character arc to be had with him trying reconcile this Sakura Toosaka he sees with the Sakura Matou he knows.
2) Shinji's Servant would need to be summoned by Zouken instead of Sakura, so it wouldn't be Medusa. I doesn't even need to be Rider, even. Zouken could give Shinji, I dunno, Saber Fionn because he formed a bond with Lancer Fionn in the 3rd War. Cue epic battle between Ireland's two greatest heroes.
3) Without Shirou, there's no 7th Master, which would require Kotomine contacting the Clock Tower to ask for one more guy. Case Files established Waver was dying to hear these news, so he'd take the first flight to Fuyuki and get his Saber or Rider Iskandar depending on which Class Shinji took (I say as if I don't know that the laws of narrative causality dictates he gets Rider).

I won't get into how this Grail War would play out because the 3 routes are very arbitrary about who makes the first move in each of them, and I guess I already wrote enough to prove my point that changing the personality of main characters would change the story completely. If anyone wants to take this premise further and talk about how Atlas' Contract and Grand Roll would change with Waver getting to meet Iskandar mid-Case Files and potentially dying there, be my guest. Talk about how this affects Flat's participation in /strange Fake while you're at it.

I propose instead that, while Rin may lack Sakura's resilience, Sakura in turn lacks Rin's characteristic willfulness and stubborn streak. So while Zouken still does his outmost to break her, Rin, similar to Sakura in HF, finds something worth rebelling against Grandpa Skeleton for and, say, disembowels Shinji (as one does). So now you have a HGW with cold, calculating 'nothing to lose' Rin vs a 'willing to go to the mats to bring her sister back' Sakura, both as proper Masters. I won't speculate on which Servant each ends up summoning (though I can just see Rin pulling a Misaya/Extra Rin and summoning Cu instead of Bazett), but Shirou becomes the grand prize between them (knowingly or not).

[madarra]

Didnt the HF 2 Q&A have that question with Takeuchi saying Rin ends up Counter Guardian TOHSAKA and Nasu saying she doesnt and implies shes not surviving as well as Sakura did?

Insert narative about Sakura surviving cuz she had dreams of a rescue at Nee-san's hand to fall back on till Shirou,while Rin doesnt have a Nee-san to fall back on.

[TheSeaDragon]

I propose instead that, while Rin may lack Sakura's resilience, Sakura in turn lacks Rin's characteristic willfulness and stubborn streak. So while Zouken still does his outmost to break her, Rin, similar to Sakura in HF, finds something worth rebelling against Grandpa Skeleton for and, say, disembowels Shinji (as one does). So now you have a HGW with cold, calculating 'nothing to lose' Rin vs a 'willing to go to the mats to bring her sister back' Sakura, both as proper Masters. I won't speculate on which Servant each ends up summoning (though I can just see Rin pulling a Misaya/Extra Rin and summoning Cu instead of Bazett), but Shirou becomes the grand prize between them (knowingly or not).

If Rin actually lives on, i can see this

[Walnut Sparks]

I propose instead that, while Rin may lack Sakura's resilience, Sakura in turn lacks Rin's characteristic willfulness and stubborn streak.

How do we know Rin would still develop those characteristics under Sakura's canonical situation?

[Mementore]

How do we know Rin would still develop those characteristics under Sakura's canonical situation?

I'd say that it's a personality trait she always had or developed it in the first years of her life, when Tokiomi was still alive.

[Deathhappens]

How do we know Rin would still develop those characteristics under Sakura's canonical situation?

If we accept the F/0 anime as at least partially canon, she had them since she was a junior schooler.

[warellis]

If we accept the F/0 anime as at least partially canon, she had them since she was a junior schooler.

Even the F/0 LN showed she had some similar determination, even if she didn't reach Gilles & Ryuunosuke's lair.

[Walnut Sparks]

Fair enough. But how do we know that a decade of the Matou treatment wouldn't repress or destroy it?

[forumghost]

Fair enough. But how do we know that a decade of the Matou treatment wouldn't repress or destroy it?

How do we know that it would? You're asking people to prove a negative.

[JusticeAmongSwords]

I recall reading a piece of fanfiction with a similar "What if" premise. The image of "Matou Rin" in that one was suspiciously close to Kariya in terms of actions and character. Basically, Rin still wants to protect Sakura during the war while struggling with worm shenanigans. It ain't proving anything, I think it pretty much fits though.