Touko's initial involvement in KnK

[Prix with a Silent X]

I ran this by You, esteemed lore curator, and they didn't know if it had ever been sufficiently explained in canon.

So I decided to crowd-source opinions and any insight into canon, because it's still bugging me.

I just recently rewatched the movies and had forgotten that Araya knew about Shiki when she was still in high school and therefore did not learn about Shiki through Touko's involvement in the story.

So, what we know, from my understanding, is this:

1. Araya learned about Shiki, probably because he was around 200-150 years prior when possibly the Ryougi family was still involved in that demon hunting organization thing? He attacks her in 1995, at the moment when she's trying to muster the gumption to kill Mikiya because she can't handle her feelings.

2. Touko hires Mikiya in... 1998? 1997? I forget but before Shiki comes out of her coma.

3. At some point prior to hiring Mikiya, Touko worked on part of the design of the condo in Paradox Spiral. Unclear whether she was feigning ignorance of the project's nature to Mikiya when he asked about this fact, which he'd apparently learned through his research into the building itself, or if she had forgotten about the project because she took it up, did part of it, and did not - at the time - know that Araya was involved.

Point #3 is what I'm most interested in, because I don't think there's any way to gauge exactly when this happened unless Mikiya indicated when the condo started to be built and I have lost track of that thread.

Mahoyo isn't really in my frame of reference, but it's my understanding that Touko kind of retired from villainy after Aoko defeats her evil plan then, but that wasn't too terribly long after she left Clock Tower.

I wonder, then, did she maintain some kind of association with Araya (and Alba) after this point?

Was she directly working with them in the early stages of building the Paradox Spiral condo but then separated herself from the project because she felt like they were doing stuff she no longer wanted to be involved in?

Or, if she was hired and literally didn't know what was going on - either through some shell company/anonymous employer situation or because she was doing a favor for Araya without much thought put into it - did Araya seek her out for this project for some specific reason?

And, finally, how does this ultimately culminate in Touko hiring Mikiya?

Touko basically, as I recall, frames hiring Mikiya as "you're good at finding things; you found my workshop; here's a job." And she seems to learn about Shiki primarily from Mikiya and Shiki herself around the time Shiki wakes up. The latter part, at least, seems honest to me.

Therefore, I'm wondering if:

A) Touko involved herself and put herself in Mikiya (and therefore somehow Shiki's) way but made it look like a random, convenient happenstance because she had learned of Araya's negative interest in Shiki and was interested in combating whatever he had planned for her because of her heel-face turn.

B) Araya somehow socially engineered Touko getting involved through whatever influence he used to get her on board with the condo project or because she left the project somehow.

C) It's all just some kind of stupendous coincidence.

Thoughts?

Is this the realm of headcanon or are there answers anyone knows?

And somewhere between is welcome by me. This is just really bugging me.

[Dullahan]

touko only designed the lobby in the east tower, not the whole building. probably she got involved when it was originally being built [1996-1997] as a company dormitory. ownership changed (to Araya, obviously) at some point during the construction process and it was converted to a manshon [residential apartment] complex. off the top of my head there is no indication she had any contact with araya or alba between leaving london and paradox spiral.

[Prix with a Silent X]

Yeah, I remembered that part, but it just seems like a hell of a coincidence unless someone was interacting or doing some stalking.

Then, I don't see any problem with the stalking not coming from the Alba or Araya end of things. Like, Araya grabbed onto something that he had learned had once had Touko involved with it or something.

It just seems unusual to me that Touko's "oh no I'm too attached" exit happens shortly after Araya's defeat/death, because she seems very ambivalent about that to begin with.

I'm just curious about it, because I think that all of the stuff I wrote up there kind of indicates that there was a more important causal link between "why did Touko even get involved in this story" and its culmination.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually, come to think of it, Touko says she got out the picture of herself with Araya and Alba because she "couldn't remember what they looked like anymore," which supports the idea that she didn't have any contact with them post-Clock Tower.

But she had credit cards in his name, lol. What was that??? Just Touko committing identity theft for fun?

[Dullahan]

touko only designed the lobby in the east tower, not the whole building. probably she got involved when it was originally being built [1996-1997] as a company dormitory. ownership changed (to Araya, obviously) at some point during the construction process and it was converted to a manshon [residential apartment] complex. off the top of my head there is no indication she had any contact with araya or alba between leaving london and paradox spiral.

the only real difficulty with this interpretation is the somewhat cryptic remark Araya makes in /10

「……ブレーキを壊して背中を押した、の間違いだろ。たしかにさ、この建物はストレス溜まるよな。いたる所 で歪んでいるんだ。床は海みたいに所々が傾斜してて平衡感覚が狂うし、目に負担をかける塗装と照明の使い方 で神経も知らずにまいってくる。何の呪術的な効果もなしで人をここまでおかしくできるんだ。たいした建築家 だよ、おまえは」
「ここの設計は蒼崎に依頼した。賛美ならば私ではなく彼女に送られるべきだろう」

"I entrusted the design to Aozaki." a lot depends on how you interpret that phrase.

I'm just curious about it, because I think that all of the stuff I wrote up there kind of indicates that there was a more important causal link between "why did Touko even get involved in this story" and its culmination.

Touko encounters Azaka and takes her as an apprentice in some as yet unspecified incident in 1997, probably out at her (azaka's) uncle's house in Hachiouji. By sheer coincidence Mikiya stumbles across her exhibition in early 1998. The two are unrelated as far as can be directly inferred. There are a great many absurd coincidences in KnK. If you asked nasu he'd probably say it's the Counter Force at work.

Actually, come to think of it, Touko says she got out the picture of herself with Araya and Alba because she "couldn't remember what they looked like anymore," which supports the idea that she didn't have any contact with them post-Clock Tower. But she had credit cards in his name, lol. What was that???

that only happens in the movie. it's not in the novel. possibly it is just an easter egg, like fujino wearing saber's outfit in one of the dossier photographs. in any case they're not credit cards. they're Asagami Construction worker ID to gain access to the building site on the broad bridge. as for why she uses araya's name on them, well-

Just Touko committing identity theft for fun?

that is probably what you are intended to believe.

[Prix with a Silent X]

"I entrusted the design to Aozaki." a lot depends on how you interpret that phrase.

This sort of gives me the vibe that Araya somehow was involved earlier and that he coaxed Touko into it for some reason. She says something like that his interest in understanding people/Truth/something is in the soul while hers was in physical bodies? And she seems generally adept at designing things in general, apparently. The whole condo thing is like a physical representation of... the cycle of life and death, I think?

Anyway, sort of gives this kind of eerie vibe that, like, Touko thinks she's involved of her own volition or through mere weird coincidences but that somehow she was pushed to do so.

There are a great many absurd coincidences in KnK. If you asked nasu he'd probably say it's the Counter Force at work.

But I actually really, really like this, and I am intrigued by the "is it this or that" wrt (maybe) Araya and the Counter Force if one went that direction, because Araya keeps insisting that the Counter Force can't interfere with his plan in Paradox Spiral.

that only happens in the movie. it's not in the novel. possibly it is just an easter egg, like fujino wearing saber's outfit in one of the dossier photographs. in any case they're not credit cards. they're Asagami Construction worker ID to gain access to the building site on the broad bridge. as for why she uses araya's name on them, well-

that is probably what you are intended to believe.

That's sort of precious. But also I consider movie additions like that still... relevant to discussions of canon, especially since the KnK movies are the only widely available, complete form of KnK available to most of us.

Also... cute.

[Dullahan]

Araya keeps insisting that the Counter Force can't interfere with his plan in Paradox Spiral.

well yeah but the whole point is that he's wrong

[Prix with a Silent X]

Yes, I know. It is a very pretty scene. I'm just saying that it didn't until Shiki and co got involved.

[Dullahan]

That's impossible to prove one way or another. Counter Force might well have been behind everything from before shiki was even born

[Prix with a Silent X]

"Impossible to prove" is what I like to hear.