Magic systems existing "for the sake of itself" vs "for the plot"

[CielWorstGirl]

I occasionally see discussions about this when talking about writing fantasy. The idea that a magic system in a story should have spells and other elements to it that might not necessarily be relevant to the story, but are put in order to have the worldbuilding feel more "natural" and "lived in".

On the other side of the spectrum I see some people say that the only magical elements that should exist/be mentioned in your story should only be stuff that's immediately relevant to the story. Basically the spells are just different devices used to advance the plot or to make something in your story happen without it being a plot hole.

Where do you think the Nasuverse falls on this spectrum? I'd it's mostly the former with some smaller things just existing to facilitate the story or shoehorn fanservice like pseudo-servants.

[Menwearpink]

I mean it has to have a lot more than is relevant to the story, because it takes real life academia and anthropology and dumps it in. So really it's more of a matter of what they decide to look at and adapt/use in Nasu in that given day. This in turn also makes it that you're referencing stuff in the system beyond what's directly in the story, and also explaining things through things that already exist in real life "Hey Gu bug pots" (in heavens feel) so sometimes it ends up serving a pretty direct purpose of get the audience to get the concept behind X magic or phenomena in story, and also reference that yeah it's a thing these characters know about and someone does out there.

Plenty was set up with Old Fate and Mahoyo also so you could say everything else flows from the structure that those two things set in stone.

Small hints, comparisons and references to things that haven't been shown help a world feel bigger and make a story just part of it. While also giving connections that can later be explored eventually, or give context to certain things. (There's also something to be said of how world building in cases like Nasu is about revealing the difference/truth behind something that differs from common knowledge in IRL. Treated as going "that isn't true, that is." but it's really just world building since it's going "In this world this is what's up.")


I'd say it tends to end up a bit important as far as my personal tastes go rather than a judgement on Kinoko. You can say something like "His skill is on the level of one of the fifty knights of London Street!" or something like that, to give the idea that there's a comparison that's established in-universe for the characters to relate to what they're seeing, doing or otherwise experiencing. It can give the idea that a character is familiar with things like that, or that it's something that's well within the capabilities of the systems of the world. Or it's just going oh man that thing is scary/cool, like going "Zabuza is one of the seven swordsman of the Mist" (with none of the others showing up for years later.) It can also invite a bit of curiosity from your consumers which you then cash in by sating said curiosity in stuff later if you want to make more stuff.

The danger is in adding stuff like that in without it having any actual connection or point of framing stuff in the story I guess. But you could say it can be content just for fun in things like Rin sensei lectures too.

[Takashi]

Servant mechanics mostly falls under supernatural phenomenon. Unless you count every supernatural phenomenon as magic system I don't think it counts.
Nasuverse is consistent in terms of magic. The magic system has too many constraints yet it is also more diverse. I do believe magical system in nasuverse feels quite natural it was that they are building a world. Not putting main character in the middle and then Making the world but building the world and then making him as another person with main character qualities.
Later is what I like

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But if you are just want it for your one story I believe letter one is fine.

[aldeayeah]

Nasuverse has kilotons of setting stuff that does nothing for the story, and we wouldn't have it any other way.

That being said, I think that's IMO a false dichotomy - a well-defined magic system is in itself a very useful tool in a fantasy story, for the writer to create and subvert expectations.

Simplifying to the extreme, there are two ways to conceptualize magic: either it's an unknowable, mysterious, unpredictable quantity, or technology by a different name. The Nasuverse generally goes for the second approach, but uses the first sparingly for impact.

There's also a middle, easier version of the latter that's "magic has rules, but we don't know the whole rulebook", which too often devolves into "I keep pulling stuff out of my ass for convenience"

but i digress

[ItsaRandomUsername]

Ask yourself this, do you want a full keyboard, or do you want a keyboard that only has some of the keys work?

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And no, you can't trade it in for a new keyboard.

...Probably.

[GarlandGreene]

I think Type Moon typically falls somewhere in-between the two (at least the pre-FGO stuff as far as I'm concerned). Personally I'm more for the latter since those elements are actually given context to by tying them to the story, rather than a bunch of incoherent ramblings that are simply there to pad out the time or to act as a red herring and divert attention from the plot’s lack of depth. When there is no relationship between the mechanics of a universe and the plot of a fictional work, the universe loses its meaning. If mechanics are a key part of the narrative structure, then the decontextualized infodumps of poorly crafted magic or sci-fi are the equivalent of building a foundation without adorning it with anything more than a series of metal pillars and layers of brick. Though to be fair, while there is always some extra fluff in Type-Moon stories, the real gibberish really only enters the picture when you scour the wiki and talk to the fans.

[Comun]

One good example that always comes to mind is every Archer to this day having Independent Action just because EMIYA needed to reappear at the end of UBW despite being without a Master for a few days.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I personally like how the Nasuverse introduces mechanics in the context of what's necessary for the plot, yet also introduces others as a way to allude to how there's a much wider world outside of the struggle of the characters in the current narrative. It makes it feel more real IMO.