Melty Blood: Type Lumina

[Nanaya]

Fate CM got nuked by Zelretch and human order is stronk, it's a fair bet that the conditions for his return are not favourable.

Shouldn't all that really matters is that a TA meeting the requirements exists and they give up their sense of self? CM seems to get nuked in either world. I wonder if/how humanity being strong would actually matter here since the point of CM revival was so that he can exist within the system... but then again there is Ryougi's MB scenario. I wonder if we'll ever get a concise explanation on how the foundational differences work.

Either way Nasu seems kind of wishy-washy on whether or not the cast would even exist in Fate. That probably stems from his stance on Tsukihime and Fate not intertwining. Which may indicate it's a non-issue since he's probably not writing with the limitations in mind. If Arc exists in Fate for example he'll just bleach her and the rest of them out of existence and into irrelevancy I guess.

[madarra]

Noelle was never a thing.

I see, thanks.

[Leftovers]

Shouldn't all that really matters is that a TA meeting the requirements exists and they give up their sense of self? CM seems to get nuked in either world. I wonder if/how humanity being strong would actually matter here since the point of CM revival was so that he can exist within the system... but then again there is Ryougi's MB scenario. I wonder if we'll ever get a concise explanation on how the foundational differences work.

Sorry, I skipped like half of the reasoning there. Actually, the getting nuked part led into a speculation about the seemingly earlier date of the Fate version compared to the estimated date of the old Tsukihime version and how that might figure into him teaching the TA how to photocopy themselves, but Nasu still can't do math so that's irrelevant. It's more that the same event happening in the two worlds precludes the existence of DAA in one world but not in the other, so either it happened in a different way or it had a different outcome. Whichever is true, the lack of DAA to erode human order seems like something that would affect how effective or unopposed his return would be. The cryptic stuff about the planet's cornerstone and the principle taking hold should at least pertain to it.

[Nanaya]

Sorry, I skipped like half of the reasoning there. Actually, the getting nuked part led into a speculation about the seemingly earlier date of the Fate version compared to the estimated date of the old Tsukihime version and how that might figure into him teaching the TA how to photocopy themselves, but Nasu still can't do math so that's irrelevant. It's more that the same event happening in the two worlds precludes the existence of DAA in one world but not in the other, so either it happened in a different way or it had a different outcome. Whichever is true, the lack of DAA to erode human order seems like something that would affect how effective or unopposed his return would be. The cryptic stuff about the planet's cornerstone and the principle taking hold should at least pertain to it.

Are you suggesting he got killed before he could teach the TA how to eventually manifest his successor/Arcueid? Hmm, I've thought along these lines before but aren't the DAA the result of him trying alternative methods of creating a successor after he gave up on a suitable TA being created(Edit: Actually maybe this is just referring to Altrouge)? Why would a zealot like Gransurg let himself be destroyed if there was the slightest chance of revival for his master... I can't think of anything but something preventing the rise of a proper successor in the end. Could all TA have died early in Fate? Maybe you're right and he never gave them the technique to spawn TA.

Hope what Shiki saw within Vlov is implying we'll find out the answers to this within the remake. Is it all related to CM or is there some underlying foundational difference with Alaya/Gaia as well? Chicken and Egg? Did no DAA(In the sense of a rank IX) exist at the time of CM activity? How do IB and Principles play into this? What does 'Gaia Manifests' mean?(Arc?)

[Leftovers]

Are you suggesting he got killed before he could teach the TA how to eventually manifest his successor/Arcueid? Hmm, I've thought along these lines before but aren't the DAA the result of him trying alternative methods of creating a successor after he gave up on a suitable TA being created? Why would a zealot like Gransurg let himself be destroyed if there was the slightest chance of revival for his master... I can't think of anything but something preventing the rise of a proper successor in the end. Could all TA have died early in Fate? Maybe you're right and he never gave them the technique to spawn TA.

The TA creation technique bequeathal timing is just an idle thought, I don't put much stock into it. That said, the DAA are explicitly called an incidental byproduct at least when it comes to ascribing intent to their creation. What is more probably a direct product of CM tinkering with alternatives is Altrouge.

Also good catch, Gransurg giving up is a strong sign that there was no coming back for CM in Fate.

[Reign]

CM biting Zelretch in Tsuki vs not biting in Fate may be relevant also. Because presumably it would have given Zelretch CM's Idea Blood, no?

[Nanaya]

Does CM have an Idea Blood in Fate?

Either way, rather than getting the one belonging to CM he probably would have developed his own?

[Reign]

I was under the impression that if you became a DA from a DAA biting you you got your parent vampire's Idea Blood. Isn't that how Vlov worked?

[Nanaya]

You acquire and IB by killing the holder and inheriting it like a crown. The 27 all seem to possess one since it's the mark of a DAA.

[Comun]

Vampire blood is cursed ether that makes you an enemy to both Gaia and Alaya. When a vampire injects some drops to transform you, you get a curse. When you evolve as a vampire you get more curse. And at rank IX, you have Idea Blood, where you're so damn cursed that doing basically anything already starts corroding the world around you with your Principle. See Vlov's cold auto-freezing the whole block around him when he started fighting for real.

The cryptic lore inside Vlov's dot says "The cornerstone of this planet is too frail", so one implied possibility is that Idea Bloods don't exist in Fate/ simply because Alaya there is strong enough to no sell a curse that would damage it a lot more significantly if it were weaker. And assuming the splitting point really is whether or not Zelretch dodged the final spit, that would mean that Human Order is stronger because Zelretch made it stronger, which is something he couldn't do if he was cursed into being an enemy of it.

[LegalLoliLover]

So Idea Blood/Principle is basically the DA version of the TA Marble Phantasm (or Dies irae's Ewigkeit)?

[madarra]

Dunno about FGO timeline but in FSN Zel is also at the Grail founding ceremony to give it his blessing.

[Nanaya]

Unless it turns out that Zel dodging the spit(haha) somehow kills CM's ability to play a part/revive I tend to think it's not the actual direct factor. Since CM status is supposed to be the primary determining element of the split, could his simple existence be what weakens Human Order? I think KT described him possessing a world-corrosive will.
Again, I have to wonder if rank IX DAA existed when CM walked the earth in Tsukihime. If they did, doesn't it imply that there would have to be a foundational difference in the world that predates the battle with Zel? When does that narration that occurs when Shiki is peering into Vlov occur... He's glimpsing the past and it mentions Ancestors but it's hard to say... the full meaning of that passage really is the key I guess. This makes me question the timeline in Tsukihime now. Does CM defeat occur at the same point as it does in Fate since he supposedly died right before his successor was made(in old lore at least)? Maybe simply existing longer in the world would screw human order and let DA run rampant. Too many what ifs.

I wonder how much of this will be covered/alluded to in RG and if the shit Roa has up his sleeve is actually going to fit into one route for Arc. Seems like it could be pretty big stuff. Maybe this decade we'll know.

[Alfredo845]

I think that the key point or at least one of them of the difference is that Zelretch is infected or not, with how important it is with respect to parallel worlds, I would not be surprised if its state affects the human order of its branch of the multiverse

[Namelesss]

Last two DLC characters are probably Sacchin and Neco-Arc but I hope the last two are actually Alice and Chadjuuro.

[Kirishima]

Don't think we're getting Satsuki until her Route is out to avoid spoilers. Hell, we didn't even get the real Akiha yet, they went with the school uniform variant.

[fumei]

Didn't they show that Noel was an executor before tsukiRe was even out? Or maybe it was like right after release. Sure, it wasn't exactly a big twist but vampire satsuki or whatever they'd put in MB isn't really either in the same vein imo.

[TomPen94]

My guesses are PCiel and Neco-Arc (unfortunately), but my wish list is PCiel and Sion or Ryougi (heh, as if).

[Comun]

Don't think we're getting Satsuki until her Route is out to avoid spoilers. Hell, we didn't even get the real Akiha yet, they went with the school uniform variant.

They openly mention Akiha being an oni despite this not being told anywhere in A Piece of Glass Moon and being a relatively late reveal in her old route.

Didn't they show that Noel was an executor before tsukiRe was even out? Or maybe it was like right after release. Sure, it wasn't exactly a big twist but vampire satsuki or whatever they'd put in MB isn't really either in the same vein imo.

Nasu released Tsukihime and begged for the whole internet to not post spoilers on the first two weeks. Noel was announced for Melty in the 7th day.

[Nanaya]

Don't forget Kouma's profile spoiling the Nanaya massacre.