EDIT: *Insert Anju being an idiot here*
Last edited by Anju Addams; March 21st, 2023 at 02:11 PM.
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This could be cool. In my headcanon, I could see it as the Clock Tower having a "You lot are not mages" kind of attitude and wanting nothing to do with them, further emphasized by the fact that these "country bumpkins" wipe the floor with any mages that try to extend their influence into the good ol' USA via Kiritsugu-style tactics. Perhaps they could also be the reason why mages aren't particularly involved in the affairs of the "rabble" (eg major global wars and the like)?
In fact, you could also play this up a bit further if you tied them in as a "shadow side" of the US military (the DIA in particular seems like a good organization you could tie this concept to). With the number of US military instillations across the globe I'm sure there could be plenty of opportunities for shenanigans between them and the "true mages" of the Association.
Let's all take a deep breath and think about the consequences of our actions. People reinterpreting myths in a feminist or queer way is cool. People being myth-accurate and loyal to the original material is also cool. It's as shrimple as that.
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She didn't actually say feminist bastardization though, she said bastardization and you zeroed on the feminist aspect. But it's occurred to me I'm actually not familiar with Walker's works, just that she seems to have an infamous reputation here for dubious syncretism and general presenting headcanons as serious scholarship. It's possible I'm not giving her a fair shake, so I'll bow out of this debate (although I'm not sure if you're actually defending Walker or just feminist interpretation more generally).
There was a certain Nuclear take involving actual anti-feminist rant in the MCaS thread a while back, so that's probably why Anju is being a bit defensive
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Barbara Walker's issues are inlaid in the exact same pattern as a Fate fan's. The difference is, we're not meant to be taken so seriously. She employs a lot of syncretization and narrative calls in what should be an objective work of scholastic merit, which diminishes her work greatly.
One of my favorite neon red flags present in Walker's work is this:
"This name meaning "Father Brahm" seems to have been a Semitic version of India's patriarchal god Brahma; he was also the Islamic Abrama, founder of Mecca. But Islamic legends say Abraham was a late intruder into the shrine of the Kaaba. He bought it from priestesses of its original Goddess. Sarah, "the Queen", was one of the Goddess's titles, which became a name of Abraham's biblical "wife". "
I don't believe I need to explain why this is the most ridiculous work of anthropological backflips ever done.
I'm going to try and steer clear of the way the conversation is heating up to very quickly talk about Barbara Walker's Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Book:
I'm actually of the opinion that a lot of really cool work is being done in the field of studying past human cultures in terms of trying to look at them through a queer or feminist lens. A lot of really smart people are putting their noses to the grindstone trying to add their voice to a field that has traditionally been pretty insular and male-dominated for any number of reasons (lack of funding, self-selection, certain ingrained narratives, general academic elitism etc etc.) All of these are important additions to the broader story of humanity.
However, in order to be a scholar, one has to engage, in one way or another, with the actual material being presented. That material can be textual, it can be linguistic, it can be transcribed from oral transmissions, but there has to be a connection between subject and interpretation. Walker's book, A Women's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets has no such relationship. It's built on what is a series of loose Mad Libs associations (Scáthach = Skadi = Cailleach = Kali = A Mother Goddess in her Destruction aspect) with no understanding of language, culture or the perception of women in the societies she purports to speak on behalf of. It's a book composed of conspiracy theories about a pan-human matriarchal goddess cult that was violently suppressed by a patriarchal cult that all contemporary religions (all of them) are based off of.
It's where you get Scáthach-Skadi (and the idea that Scáthach is any kind of goddess in the first place), it's where you get Titania being based on a fictional Greek goddess named "Titan" whose cult was destroyed by the Theoi worshippers and then euhemerized as the Titanomachy. It's where you get the Medb-Mab and Morgan-Morrígan connections in spite of the fact that the two name sets aren't related at all. And it's where you get the idea that the Gorgons were a trio of goddesses rather than a trio of monsters.
None of these things would be bad if it was presented as a fictional narrative. It'd be a bit Dan Brown-y, but some people are into that. The problem is that the book purports to be factual and academic. It is neither.
(Also her later work gets awfully TERF-y so it's just the worst of all possible worlds really.)
Last edited by Castellan; March 20th, 2023 at 05:57 PM.
I'd heard it was pretty radical, but that's outright some Crowley level syncretism. If you had posted this as an idea instead of a quote, I wouldn't even question its place in the forum, lol
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Yeah....uh. Kamera's right here. I've been a little pissed of since and that in between some bad days, I sort of reached my limit when I saw something I thought was written along the same lines. Looking back in the context of the conversation after walking away and calming down, I overreacted, so apologies. I had a rant like this before a few years ago and said I would change but...clearly I need to take my own advice some more in the future. Sorry again to RoydGold and WhiteFrenzy and anyone else I hurt too.
(PS. I don't think either of you are incels or that anyone here is for that matter).
Thanks, I think you are pretty swell too.
It was more that feminist aspect than Walker as I will also admit even I am not too familiar with her works either. As I said, I overreacted in a negative way.
Yeah...uh...ok wow...I have no words for that.
Man, I sound like a fucking idiot right now huh?
Oof. Perhaps I should just avoid her altogether then.
Last edited by Anju Addams; March 20th, 2023 at 06:05 PM.
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I'm telling you, she'd win MCaS easily