Servant/Project Idea Thread, "The Womb"

[RoydGolden]

Do you have some problem with feminist interpretations??? Not sure why you think they're cringy dude. Sounds like someone is projecting. Thought better of you than that Royd.

"Feminist" in quotation marks. Her works have a reputation for blurring a lot of facts to impose a dubious Neopagan framework. I don't have any problem with feminist interpretations of myth or media more generally.

[WhiteFrenzy]

#RoydGoldenCancelledTour2023

But no, jokes aside, I can understand the rolling of eyes of people who actually care about that mythology, seeing it bastardized by some... Hot takes, let's call them that way. It does sting.

[Anju Addams]

EDIT: *Insert Anju being an idiot here*

[BladeOfEden]

My basic idea is that the US government started noticing all the magus's operating in their own borders and working out of other nations during the start of the cold war and desired control of all mage activity in the US and to fight russian mages and chinese guan mages. This resulted in the founding of a top secret department of DARPA geared around practical application of magecraft with their own special forces unit geared around killing dangerous mages and securing artifacts with high mystery.

The special force team basically uses kiritsugu Emiya tactics (using familiars as recon. Avoiding direct combat when necessary and exploiting mage pride.) with techno-magical implements developed by the research department and using powerful artifacts for use in rituals. A good visual for their activities would be ghost team from ghost recon future soldier with a bit more magecraft.

This could be cool. In my headcanon, I could see it as the Clock Tower having a "You lot are not mages" kind of attitude and wanting nothing to do with them, further emphasized by the fact that these "country bumpkins" wipe the floor with any mages that try to extend their influence into the good ol' USA via Kiritsugu-style tactics. Perhaps they could also be the reason why mages aren't particularly involved in the affairs of the "rabble" (eg major global wars and the like)?

In fact, you could also play this up a bit further if you tied them in as a "shadow side" of the US military (the DIA in particular seems like a good organization you could tie this concept to). With the number of US military instillations across the globe I'm sure there could be plenty of opportunities for shenanigans between them and the "true mages" of the Association.

[WhiteFrenzy]

WAWAWAH! I'M SO SAD ABOUT A WOMAN REINTERPRATATING MYTHS MY LITTLE INCEL BRAIN CAN'T TAKE IT!

Man... I'm not one to put my hand on fire over anyone, but that's not what he said AT ALL. Nor what Royd does, considering we know him for as long as we are in this sub-forum. Methinks you're really, really blowing this out of proportion.

[NINE-lives]

Let's all take a deep breath and think about the consequences of our actions. People reinterpreting myths in a feminist or queer way is cool. People being myth-accurate and loyal to the original material is also cool. It's as shrimple as that.

[Anju Addams]

Man... I'm not one to put my hand on fire over anyone, but that's not what he said AT ALL. Nor what Royd does, considering we know him for as long as we are in this sub-forum. Methinks you're really, really blowing this out of proportion.

I was literally just quoting what your post about 'feminist bastardization annoys people' sounds like but like whatever.

[BladeOfEden]

WAWAWAH! I'M SO SAD ABOUT A WOMAN REINTERPRATATING MYTHS MY LITTLE INCEL BRAIN CAN'T TAKE IT! FUCK OFF WITH THAT HOT GARBAGE.

Ummm... can you not flame in public threads? You're burying people's discussions/questions. If you want to fight, please fight via private message or something.

[WhiteFrenzy]

Sometimes people have a bad day. It's fine.
But in the end I still think Anju is pretty swell and that's not gonna change because we had ONE disagreement over something easily solved with an exchange of words anyway. I can only hope she feels the same.

[RoydGolden]

I was literally just quoting what your post about 'feminist bastardization annoys people' sounds like but like whatever.

She didn't actually say feminist bastardization though, she said bastardization and you zeroed on the feminist aspect. But it's occurred to me I'm actually not familiar with Walker's works, just that she seems to have an infamous reputation here for dubious syncretism and general presenting headcanons as serious scholarship. It's possible I'm not giving her a fair shake, so I'll bow out of this debate (although I'm not sure if you're actually defending Walker or just feminist interpretation more generally).

[Kamera]

There was a certain Nuclear take involving actual anti-feminist rant in the MCaS thread a while back, so that's probably why Anju is being a bit defensive

[RoydGolden]

There was a certain Nuclear take involving actual anti-feminist rant in the MCaS thread a while back, so that's probably why Anju is being a bit defensive

Yeah, I remember that fallout. "Feminism is a heresy" is something I elected not to touch with a ten-foot pole.

[WhiteFrenzy]

There was a certain Nuclear take involving actual anti-feminist rant in the MCaS thread a while back, so that's probably why Anju is being a bit defensive

Totally understandable reaction, which is why I don't hold against her or anything... Those were unfortunate words.

I'M SORRY THO BLADE, there was some real interesting USA magi convo happening and I feel like I helped to fan a fire. Sorry. :C

[Salt Pillar]

Barbara Walker's issues are inlaid in the exact same pattern as a Fate fan's. The difference is, we're not meant to be taken so seriously. She employs a lot of syncretization and narrative calls in what should be an objective work of scholastic merit, which diminishes her work greatly.

One of my favorite neon red flags present in Walker's work is this:
"This name meaning "Father Brahm" seems to have been a Semitic version of India's patriarchal god Brahma; he was also the Islamic Abrama, founder of Mecca. But Islamic legends say Abraham was a late intruder into the shrine of the Kaaba. He bought it from priestesses of its original Goddess. Sarah, "the Queen", was one of the Goddess's titles, which became a name of Abraham's biblical "wife". "

I don't believe I need to explain why this is the most ridiculous work of anthropological backflips ever done.

[Castellan]

I'm going to try and steer clear of the way the conversation is heating up to very quickly talk about Barbara Walker's Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Book:

I'm actually of the opinion that a lot of really cool work is being done in the field of studying past human cultures in terms of trying to look at them through a queer or feminist lens. A lot of really smart people are putting their noses to the grindstone trying to add their voice to a field that has traditionally been pretty insular and male-dominated for any number of reasons (lack of funding, self-selection, certain ingrained narratives, general academic elitism etc etc.) All of these are important additions to the broader story of humanity.

However, in order to be a scholar, one has to engage, in one way or another, with the actual material being presented. That material can be textual, it can be linguistic, it can be transcribed from oral transmissions, but there has to be a connection between subject and interpretation. Walker's book, A Women's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets has no such relationship. It's built on what is a series of loose Mad Libs associations (Scáthach = Skadi = Cailleach = Kali = A Mother Goddess in her Destruction aspect) with no understanding of language, culture or the perception of women in the societies she purports to speak on behalf of. It's a book composed of conspiracy theories about a pan-human matriarchal goddess cult that was violently suppressed by a patriarchal cult that all contemporary religions (all of them) are based off of.

It's where you get Scáthach-Skadi (and the idea that Scáthach is any kind of goddess in the first place), it's where you get Titania being based on a fictional Greek goddess named "Titan" whose cult was destroyed by the Theoi worshippers and then euhemerized as the Titanomachy. It's where you get the Medb-Mab and Morgan-Morrígan connections in spite of the fact that the two name sets aren't related at all. And it's where you get the idea that the Gorgons were a trio of goddesses rather than a trio of monsters.

None of these things would be bad if it was presented as a fictional narrative. It'd be a bit Dan Brown-y, but some people are into that. The problem is that the book purports to be factual and academic. It is neither.

(Also her later work gets awfully TERF-y so it's just the worst of all possible worlds really.)

[Gl4re]

I'd heard it was pretty radical, but that's outright some Crowley level syncretism. If you had posted this as an idea instead of a quote, I wouldn't even question its place in the forum, lol

[Random]

Feminism is a heresy

The bara fandom is truly something else

[Anju Addams]

There was a certain Nuclear take involving actual anti-feminist rant in the MCaS thread a while back, so that's probably why Anju is being a bit defensive

Yeah....uh. Kamera's right here. I've been a little pissed of since and that in between some bad days, I sort of reached my limit when I saw something I thought was written along the same lines. Looking back in the context of the conversation after walking away and calming down, I overreacted, so apologies. I had a rant like this before a few years ago and said I would change but...clearly I need to take my own advice some more in the future. Sorry again to RoydGold and WhiteFrenzy and anyone else I hurt too.

(PS. I don't think either of you are incels or that anyone here is for that matter).

Sometimes people have a bad day. It's fine.
But in the end I still think Anju is pretty swell and that's not gonna change because we had ONE disagreement over something easily solved with an exchange of words anyway. I can only hope she feels the same.

Thanks, I think you are pretty swell too.

She didn't actually say feminist bastardization though, she said bastardization and you zeroed on the feminist aspect. But it's occurred to me I'm actually not familiar with Walker's works, just that she seems to have an infamous reputation here for dubious syncretism and general presenting headcanons as serious scholarship. It's possible I'm not giving her a fair shake, so I'll bow out of this debate (although I'm not sure if you're actually defending Walker or just feminist interpretation more generally).

It was more that feminist aspect than Walker as I will also admit even I am not too familiar with her works either. As I said, I overreacted in a negative way.

Barbara Walker's issues are inlaid in the exact same pattern as a Fate fan's. The difference is, we're not meant to be taken so seriously. She employs a lot of syncretization and narrative calls in what should be an objective work of scholastic merit, which diminishes her work greatly.

One of my favorite neon red flags present in Walker's work is this:
"This name meaning "Father Brahm" seems to have been a Semitic version of India's patriarchal god Brahma; he was also the Islamic Abrama, founder of Mecca. But Islamic legends say Abraham was a late intruder into the shrine of the Kaaba. He bought it from priestesses of its original Goddess. Sarah, "the Queen", was one of the Goddess's titles, which became a name of Abraham's biblical "wife". "

I don't believe I need to explain why this is the most ridiculous work of anthropological backflips ever done.

Yeah...uh...ok wow...I have no words for that.

Man, I sound like a fucking idiot right now huh?

(Also her later work gets awfully TERF-y so it's just the worst of all possible worlds really.)

Oof. Perhaps I should just avoid her altogether then.

[Salt Pillar]

I'm telling you, she'd win MCaS easily

[Castellan]

I'd heard it was pretty radical, but that's outright some Crowley level syncretism. If you had posted this as an idea instead of a quote, I wouldn't even question its place in the forum, lol

Both Nasu and the Shin Megami Tensei developers have openly cribbed from her work (see: Medusa, Oberon's character materials for Titania and the whole Scáthach-Skadi debacle) so there's a reason it fits right in