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Thread: Servant/Project Idea Thread, "The Womb"

  1. #961
    Break out of blues RoydGolden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cursed by Fortuna View Post
    I'm afraid I'm going to need to ask who Dakki is? I don't recognize the name (nor do I recognize Darpaudi either) and the I don't see enough info here to derive who your'e talking about. Doing a search also just nets me with a manga character with the name.
    I think Dakki is just another spelling of Daji, AKA one of Tamamo's aliases.

  2. #962
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoydGolden View Post
    I think Dakki is just another spelling of Daji, AKA one of Tamamo's aliases.
    Ahh, that would explain it.


    On a meta level though I ask are they just aliases though?


    "This ashen place is grave of Tamamo. Once told, it came to die. But what is death for that ancient fox? More transformation methinks."



    This is just a theory mind you, but I always interpreted the situation as Daji existed or the entire reason Tamamo's other tails could manifest as heroic spirits at all was that they had their own legends separate enough of the original Tamamo-no-mae's own.

    This is just one interpretation mind you, but the way I felt about the situation is that when Tamamo, died she didn't just go away. Similar to her IRL legend her body became the Sessho-seki, that was said to still be cursed until it was purified much later. But I felt that Tamamo-no-mae died, but her some of her tails which are known to be able to manifest and act separately from her managed to live on, developing their own legends and stories. Daji was one of those tails as was Tamamo-Cat. If you take into account she can only ever seem to manifest a maximum of three tails I would interpret that three tails is the number of tails which stayed with her body when she died, leaving six to escape as new Kitsune to cause their own troubles or problems to the world.



    Granted this could just be I really dislike how weak Tamamo tends to be given her role in myth (especially now that we know via Asclepius that the dead can be resurrected which makes her NP make even less sense) and all the weirdness revolving around both how non-serious and kinda jokey her character is played to be, considering the character.

  3. #963
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six pinetree's Avatar
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    You're mixing things up there. Daji is the first one in the legend, Tamamo is the last name she used. It's when she died for real.

    And her tails are a result of CCC, I agree that they might represent different evil fox stories, but they didn't actually live it out.

  4. #964
    世はまさにパンテオン Comun's Avatar
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    Due to heavy syncretism being removed from its meta perspective, Daji and Tamamo no Mae in TM are presented as two human identities of the same monster fox. Daji was the name she used in 1100BC, then Tamamo was the name she used in 1100AD.

    And the Heian chapter of FGO shows her as Fujiwara no Takako, daughter of Fujiwara no Michikane in 1008AD, confirming to audience that she took other human identities in the 22 century gap between her Daji incarnation and her Tamamo incarnation.

  5. #965
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    Due to heavy syncretism being removed from its meta perspective, Daji and Tamamo no Mae in TM are presented as two human identities of the same monster fox. Daji was the name she used in 1100BC, then Tamamo was the name she used in 1100AD.

    And the Heian chapter of FGO shows her as Fujiwara no Takako, daughter of Fujiwara no Michikane in 1008AD, confirming to audience that she took other human identities in the 22 century gap between her Daji incarnation and her Tamamo incarnation.
    Thanks for the explanation. I still won't say I like the way TM approaches the situation in honesty.


    I distinctly recall on the other forum (CaS3) a huge post on all the synchronism that went into Tamamo-no-mae (Caster) which basically involves interpretations of her from the perspective of Inari, stories and tales from China, the original myths, and even some buddhism stuff (I think I recall something about her being equated or compared to some buddha). It's to the best of my understanding why her portrayal in Fate: Extra is so all over the place (from a personality perspective) and off compared to her role in the original myth with her in it, they literally took like a dozen different perspectives and views on the same character or figure and mashed it into one.


    Why on earth would Nasu & Co go through all the trouble of making a synchronised version of Tamamo-no-mae made to try and fit like a dozen different perspectives and viewpoints on the same myth, then in a game which itself ties to lore and concepts explained in that series backtrack and try to remove that synchronism. It wouldn't even be that hard to just do it as a character archetype kind of explanation (a self-perpetuating curse).



    Linking them both to Amaterasu just irks me I'm not even sure I dig the original Tamamo (Caster) being linked to Amaterasu. I would need to research myths to check if that was even a thing, but Inari would make a ton more sense, given they are frequently depicted as a fox, the whole link to nature and agriculture (later machinery, blacksmithing, and other stuff) would serve to explain their love hate relationship with humanity, and why they would send an avatar to cause trouble and bother humanity. It just confuses me that Nasu & Co are fully willing to synchronize or use the idea of myths being interconnected, in cases like Gilgamesh, or in other cases Minamoto no Raikou or Tamamo where they treat Indian and Chinese pantheons as the same as Shinto myth (when they aren't) and yet even then they can't even keep that consistent (as Amaterasu isn't even mentioned in LB4 which has the Indian pantheon in it, making it even more unclear if they are or aren't linked).


    Would it really just be so much to ask to just say "Oh yeah Siegfried, just another name for Sigurd with a slightly modified myth, summoning one would just result in the other being summoned". Would save a ton of headache in my mind.

  6. #966
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    Dionysus was originally a god of death and rebirth, got killed and reborn multiple times and was the main deity of orphism.

    “ The central focus of Orphism is the suffering and death of the god Dionysus at the hands of the Titans, which forms the basis of Orphism's central myth. According to this myth, the infant Dionysus is killed, torn apart, and consumed by the Titans. In retribution, Zeus strikes the Titans with a thunderbolt, turning them to ash. From these ashes, humanity is born. In Orphic belief, this myth describes humanity as having a dual nature: body (Ancient Greek: σῶμα, romanized: sôma), inherited from the Titans, and a divine spark or soul (Ancient Greek: ψυχή, romanized: psukhḗ), inherited from Dionysus.[5] In order to achieve salvation from the Titanic, material existence, one had to be initiated into the Dionysian mysteries and undergo teletē, a ritual purification and reliving of the suffering and death of the god.[6] Orphics believed that they would, after death, spend eternity alongside Orpheus and other heroes. The uninitiated (Ancient Greek: ἀμύητος, romanized: amúētos), they believed, would be reincarnated indefinitely.[7]”

    This sounds suspiciously similar to Buddhism/Hinduism with the focus of escape from the cycle of reincarnation. Dionysus led an invasion of India (there’s even a story of a village on the Indus River founded by dionysus).

    What if Dionysus-zagreus is actually an embodiment of the cycle of reincarnation. His original divine authority allowed to place being inside and outside the cycle of reincarnation and reincarnate beings on the spot. This is the reason he was able to wage war in India without being instantly brahmastra’d.
    Last edited by NINE-lives; December 12th, 2021 at 11:48 AM.

  7. #967
    celestial prayer 34's Avatar
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    I've made a couple of Zagreus Dionysius sheets in the past.
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  8. #968
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    Another idea: what if the reason dionysus is so crazy is because he knows souls reincarnate when they die and he just doesn’t care about people dying because they will reincarnate anyway.
    Last edited by NINE-lives; December 12th, 2021 at 12:26 PM.

  9. #969
    celestial prayer 34's Avatar
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    Isn't the whole point of Reincarnation that the soul can't die?

    ...yeah I shouldn't have bothered.

  10. #970
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    Just a misspelling.

  11. #971
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Kabalisto Koga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NINE-lives View Post
    Dionysus was originally a god of death and rebirth, got killed and reborn multiple times and was the main deity of orphism.

    “ The central focus of Orphism is the suffering and death of the god Dionysus at the hands of the Titans, which forms the basis of Orphism's central myth. According to this myth, the infant Dionysus is killed, torn apart, and consumed by the Titans. In retribution, Zeus strikes the Titans with a thunderbolt, turning them to ash. From these ashes, humanity is born. In Orphic belief, this myth describes humanity as having a dual nature: body (Ancient Greek: σῶμα, romanized: sôma), inherited from the Titans, and a divine spark or soul (Ancient Greek: ψυχή, romanized: psukhḗ), inherited from Dionysus.[5] In order to achieve salvation from the Titanic, material existence, one had to be initiated into the Dionysian mysteries and undergo teletē, a ritual purification and reliving of the suffering and death of the god.[6] Orphics believed that they would, after death, spend eternity alongside Orpheus and other heroes. The uninitiated (Ancient Greek: ἀμύητος, romanized: amúētos), they believed, would be reincarnated indefinitely.[7]”

    This sounds suspiciously similar to Buddhism/Hinduism with the focus of escape from the cycle of reincarnation. Dionysus led an invasion of India (there’s even a story of a village on the Indus River founded by dionysus).

    What if Dionysus-zagreus is actually an embodiment of the cycle of reincarnation. His original divine authority allowed to place being inside and outside the cycle of reincarnation and reincarnate beings on the spot. This is the reason he was able to wage war in India without being instantly brahmastra’d.
    Quote Originally Posted by NINE-lives View Post
    Another idea: what if the reason dionysus is so crazy is because he knows souls die when they reincarnate and he just doesn’t care about people dying because they will reincarnate anyway.
    i think rather that Dionyssuss madness is just the "living without restraint " like the manners of the enforced conducts of edicete like how one has to behave as Roman or Greek citizen and that Dionyssus represent rather the free wild like urges that the sophisiticated Citizen attributed as madness in general . Also keep in mind that greek philosophy and asiatic philosophy influenced each other .
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  12. #972
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    What if Dionysus invasion of India influenced the founding of Buddhism and Hinduism with Greek and Indian philosophy influencing each other.

  13. #973
    夜魔 Nightmare Baron Magnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kabalisto Koga View Post
    i think rather that Dionyssuss madness is just the "living without restraint " like the manners of the enforced conducts of edicete like how one has to behave as Roman or Greek citizen and that Dionyssus represent rather the free wild like urges that the sophisiticated Citizen attributed as madness in general . Also keep in mind that greek philosophy and asiatic philosophy influenced each other .
    I mean don't forget the story where he literally turned a bunch of sailors into snakes and started warping reality by turning wooden railings into ivy and turning the sails into dolphins. There's that whole incident.
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  14. #974
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    Hmm. Maybe some illusion magecraft based on that incident.

  15. #975
    超高校級のゲーマーガール Anju Addams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cursed by Fortuna View Post
    or in other cases Minamoto no Raikou or Tamamo where they treat Indian and Chinese pantheons as the same as Shinto myth (when they aren't).
    But they are. This is a real thing that Nasu is pulling from. Japanese Syncretism is a huge thing that has been going on for centuries.
    Amaterasu is Vairocana who is also Dakini who is Inari etc.
    Last edited by Anju Addams; December 12th, 2021 at 01:53 PM.
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  16. #976
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    Syncretism and it’s consequence have been a disaster for beast lair sheet makers.

  17. #977
    超高校級のゲーマーガール Anju Addams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NINE-lives View Post
    Syncretism and it’s consequence have been a disaster for beast lair sheet makers.
    I am of the opposite opinion. Syncretism is extremely fascinating. I mean, this even happens in Western religions.
    Aphrodite is Venus who is Ishtar who is Astarte who is Inanna.

    God Himself is based on a bunch of syncretism too.
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  18. #978
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    But if you take it too far then it becomes the original story becomes covered in too many layers of syncretism. It’s probably best to keep the syncretism at one or two layer of separation. Daji is tamamo who is amaterasu (who is a pretty big deal) but is it really necessary to make her the primordial Buddha or dakini?
    Last edited by NINE-lives; December 12th, 2021 at 02:08 PM.

  19. #979
    超高校級のゲーマーガール Anju Addams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NINE-lives View Post
    But if you take it too far then it becomes the original story becomes covered in too many layers of syncretism. It’s probably best to keep the syncretism at one layer of separation. Daji is tamamo who is amaterasu (who is a pretty big deal) but is it really necessary to make her the primordial Buddha or dakini?
    I can't claim to know why Nasu is doing it but at most I can speculate it's his unique attempt to explain how various random religions can exist as real things in the same world and their very much real gods can govern the same thing. If they are the same person then...
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  20. #980
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    He already had a pretty good explanation of how all myths are true with the whole “textures as pocket dimensions” thing.

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