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Thread: Servant/Project Idea Thread, "The Womb"

  1. #1641
    妣國 Tabris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcoene View Post
    Or even just the whole concept of knighthood existing in Artoria's Britain centuries before Charlemagne.

    Edit: Tough speaking of ruinous beauties, you could probably have one of Tamamo's screwed-over kings possess a skill like 'Affection of the Golden Fox' or something with a boost to 'evil actions'.
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  2. #1642
    画中仙 Kamera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cursed by Fortuna View Post
    Taigong literally cannot be a taoist as he claims, Taoism was started by Lao Zi, hundreds of years after Taigong and Daji lived, making his existence quite possibly a case of similar to the Paladins of Charlemagne, someone historical distorted by later novelizations or tales about them.
    Jiang Ziya being being described as a Taoist figurehead dates as far back as the 1st century BC though, in the Biographies of Immortals.

  3. #1643
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamera View Post
    Jiang Ziya being being described as a Taoist figurehead dates as far back as the 1st century BC though, in the Biographies of Immortals.
    Still doesn't disprove the argument. Taoism dates back to Louzi born in 571 BCE with an unknown date of death. Taoism / Daoism was spread borne of his philosophies and thoughts, and subsequently spread by him and his students. Jiang Ziya was born or lived from 1128 BC to 1015 BC nearly 5 centuries before Laozi. While I will admit it is very possible and indeed probable that some elements of Taoism / Daosim may predate the religion itself, as it would makes sense for philosophical thought to be based on an earlier basis or foundation of preexisting ideas and beliefs which west well with the popular beliefs and cultural traditions, it likely wouldn't be 1 to 1, much less given that culture would likely be very different over that 5 century time gap.


    Beyond that my argument of Jiang Ziya and King Wen possibly having had their roles in myth derived from the singular figure of Tang of Shang seems to align with their roles and the overarching themes or ideas and some beats of the two stories. However even further than that a ton of stuff on Jiang Ziya is pretty sketchy. Very little is known of his early life or aside from Nasuverse's explanation of Yuanshi Tianzun, nobody really knows who taught him. The guy is basically a ghost in a lot of ways, and a lot of the material built up around him is even more sketchy. One of the first records I could find that mentions the guy is Records of the Grand Historian written circa 91 BCE a millennia after his life. Beyond that Six Secret Teachings the supposed military tactics book he wrote supposedly centuries before Sun Tzu's Art of War, that's also false as well. Modern historians date the final compassion of both books back to the warring states period circa 475-221 BC, centuries after Jiang Ziya lived.


    In Nasu, one general rules is that "Older is better" and a lot of newer stuff dates back to traditions of older stuff. As such I think it would only make sense if the older figures of Mo Xi, Jie of Xia, and Tang of Shang inspired the ladder characters of Daji, Zhou of Shang, King Wu of Zhou, and Jiang Ziya, all derived from an older myth, plus the whole curse upon kings / dynasties angle would explain the whole running motif.

    Spoilers for lostbelt 6.5

    Plus I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss information or minor little details like this, there were a few of them back before LB 6.5 particularly with Tamamo Vitch which indicated that something was off or that she may not be who she claimed to be, like her implications of Daji or Tamamo-no-mae being the same when the ladder denies such, her own profile describing her in such a way that threw doubt into if she really was one of Tamamo's tails, and yet basically everyone seemed to just take for granted that she was Tamamo Vitch.


    Then LB 6.5 rolled around and she's revealed to basically be someone impersonating the Daji / Tamamo-no-mae, rather than the real article. Sometimes small details like this can imply a heck of a lot, in fate. While it could be Nasu just taking liberties with history, it also could be something more, so I'm reserving judgement until later.

  4. #1644
    画中仙 Kamera's Avatar
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    - - - Updated - - -

    seriously though, you're trying to rationalize things way too much. that's just how mythologies and legends works.

  5. #1645
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle Alexcoene's Avatar
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    Yeah, Arthurian Mythos don't even begin to make sense, and they're a cornerstone of this 'verse.

  6. #1646
    Wyrd oft nereð unfǽgne eorl, þonne his ellen déah... Skull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexcoene View Post
    Yeah, Arthurian Mythos don't even begin to make sense, and they're a cornerstone of this 'verse.
    Hush and eat your potatoes in Mediaeval Britain.
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  7. #1647
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    That's what I do, besides this is a mythos where magic and curses exist. Seeing the same set of circumstances happen over, and over, and over is basically an opportunity begging to have lore made about it. I'm doing just that and guess what that's my prerogative.

    spoilers for LB 6.5

    We have one beautiful Chinese consort associated with a possible / confirmed possible beast class threat, another associated with a Outer God, and in this case the reign of Jie of Xia was preceded by what may be the first recorded earthquake, and many of them share similar themes and roles. In universe that basically is a goldmine, and I'm running with it, whether you guys like it or not.


    Also

    @ Skull, Kamera, Alexcoene

    Quote Originally Posted by Lambda-Nu View Post
    When you stop
    trying to tell me what to do
    nagging
    me. I already get enough of that from my actual mom.
    Same energy here. Knock it off, you aren't funny. You are very quickly making yourselves a nuisance.

  8. #1648
    画中仙 Kamera's Avatar
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    bruh

  9. #1649
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle Alexcoene's Avatar
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    Okay, fair enough, sorry, but why are you also calling out Skull? All he did was make a Gawain joke.

  10. #1650
    祖 Ancestor
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    Hey kamera. You ever considered working on a Mayan/Incan servant? You have done touched little on South America outside of your future lostbelt.
    Last edited by NINE-lives; January 5th, 2022 at 08:59 PM.

  11. #1651
    画中仙 Kamera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cursed by Fortuna View Post
    @ Skull, Kamera, Alexcoene

    Same energy here. Knock it off, you aren't funny. You are very quickly making yourselves a nuisance.
    i'm still seriously baffled by this sudden hostility. which part of our post that you deem "nuisance"? is a minor disagreement or banter enough of a nuisance to you?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NINE-lives View Post
    Hey kamera. You ever considered working on a Mayan/Incan servant? You have done touched little on South America outside of your future lostbelt.
    i'm saving it all for that. though i suppose i can release one or two.

  12. #1652
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Kabalisto Koga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cursed by Fortuna View Post
    That's what I do, besides this is a mythos where magic and curses exist. Seeing the same set of circumstances happen over, and over, and over is basically an opportunity begging to have lore made about it. I'm doing just that and guess what that's my prerogative.

    spoilers for LB 6.5

    We have one beautiful Chinese consort associated with a possible / confirmed possible beast class threat, another associated with a Outer God, and in this case the reign of Jie of Xia was preceded by what may be the first recorded earthquake, and many of them share similar themes and roles. In universe that basically is a goldmine, and I'm running with it, whether you guys like it or not.


    Also

    @ Skull, Kamera, Alexcoene



    Same energy here. Knock it off, you aren't funny. You are very quickly making yourselves a nuisance.
    as i did fly over that Taostic discussion , do i just say its beter to remain silent on a mater you arent knowledgefull in .

    - - - Updated - - -

    and i am still not versed enough in chinese history or philosophies respectively mythologies .
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  13. #1653
    夜魔 Nightmare Baron Magnus's Avatar
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    ... Cursed by Fortuna i'm going to be nice and politely suggest that when you're angry that you step away from the computer rather than lash out at your fellow forum-goers. What they said was in no way telling you what to do and was simply critique. You know. that thing humans do as easily as they breathe. That one should expect on a forum revolved around it.

    If you find you can't then simply, I dunno, utilize the forum tools provided to let people know you aren't interested?
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  14. #1654
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Magnus View Post
    ... Cursed by Fortuna i'm going to be nice and politely suggest that when you're angry that you step away from the computer rather than lash out at your fellow forum-goers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lambda-Nu View Post
    When you stop
    Telling Me what to Do
    nagging
    me. I already get enough of that from my actual mom.
    Also applies Here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Magnus View Post
    What they said was in no way telling you what to do and was simply critique. You know. that thing humans do as easily as they breathe. That one should expect on a forum revolved around it.

    If you find you can't then simply, I dunno, utilize the forum tools provided to let people know you aren't interested?
    The world is made of more than just your perspective Baron, and thus your views"do not equal the only view or even the correct view or analysis of a matter. Just because you say they weren't twisting my arm doesn't mean that your perspective of the matter any more or less correct than mine. In your eyes it was critique in my eyes it was people, either dismissing the topic, bringing up points I've already disputed the weight of, or just complaining albeit in veiled terms they didn't like my take and trying twist my arm for daring to not agree with their standpoint or have a different take. And given I've been unfortunate enough to be replied to by AAM1232, I'm fairly familiar with critique masquerading as browbeating, even if it may be unintentional in this case.


    If there's one thing I've learned in the past two years on this thread it's that the only way of getting people to know when something's over is to tell them it's over, anything less and they'll just fail to take the hint and move on. If I need to be stern doing so, then so be it.

  15. #1655
    画中仙 Kamera's Avatar
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    Yes correct, Mr. Sherlock, a figure born before Taoism formally exist cannot literally be a Taoist. That is an apt historical understanding. Unfortunately mythology and religion literally do not work like that, and the Nasuverse works on the assumption that these mythology and religion are true to some degree. Actual practicing Taoists has been venerating Taigong Wang for millenias as a paragon of their religion, so who are you to claim that what they believe is literally false.

    It's the same thing with the Arthurian Mythos. King Arthur being a woman and wielding sword and spear made by planet literally cannot be true, but who cares about that, what matters is that there's this body of literature build around them that takes priority over historical accuracy.

    have a sense of humor and move on.

  16. #1656
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six pinetree's Avatar
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    So what's the actual point of writing literal pages of text every time you post here if you don't want people to discuss it?

  17. #1657
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle Alexcoene's Avatar
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    Asking people to be more civil is not 'nagging'.

    Edit: Plus, Taigong knowing Taoism before it was a thing matters little when legends say he was taught by a literal god. Him knowing it before anybody else in China officialy did make sense.
    Last edited by Alexcoene; January 6th, 2022 at 06:08 AM.

  18. #1658
    Local Extra Class Aficionado DelRey's Avatar
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    For some people disagreement is a personal attack, which then warrants aggressive, fatherly correction from them.
    Just nod and agree to it, because that is a prerogative we hold. A discussion only consists of Argument -> Counter-Argument and perhaps a response thats it. Artificially prolonging it is a nuisance. We dont want to be a nuisance, else communicative bridges will burn
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  19. #1659
    世はまさにパンテオン Comun's Avatar
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    Let me just confirm my understanding of the situation before anything.

    Fortuna discovered a contradiction that he found fascinating and worth exploring, but his usual long-windedness made people assume he was stressing over, so people told him to relax and have fun, which caused him to be stressed for real because he doesn't trust this people to be speaking in good faith.

    Is that the full picture of the situation here? You can answer in the Private Messages if you don't feel comfortable exposing your thoughts to the thread.

  20. #1660
    祖 Ancestor
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    How does Hindu mythology fit into your sacred tree system wyvern.

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