Servant/Project Idea Thread, "The Womb"

[Vididii]

As far as I could find in the research I did, she was the same sort of “protean creature” he was- although I did not go too far in

[Kabalisto Koga]

Both, I guess, insofar as it would be neat for a referencer to generally heed their own reference.

The word aglœca came up in the context of old Beowulf translations and what I imagine to be recent criticisms in taking it as translated - about how all three of Beowulf's major foes are referred to this way, but also how Beowulf himself is referenced with the same word, and how Grendel's mother is allegedly never explicitly characterised as monstrous (I would check the original but my Old English is a bit rusty after not having used it for about 800 years). Wondering if there was something here to work with, I suppose - or rather, I'm pretty sure there is something to work with, and I'm curious about which is a superior angle.

which are Beowulf foes beside Grendel that were called that ?

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As far as I could find in the research I did, she was the same sort of “protean creature” he was- although I did not go too far in

Protean ?what do you man with that ?

[RoydGolden]

Both, I guess, insofar as it would be neat for a referencer to generally heed their own reference.

The word aglœca came up in the context of old Beowulf translations and what I imagine to be recent criticisms in taking it as translated - about how all three of Beowulf's major foes are referred to this way, but also how Beowulf himself is referenced with the same word, and how Grendel's mother is allegedly never explicitly characterised as monstrous (I would check the original but my Old English is a bit rusty after not having used it for about 800 years). Wondering if there was something here to work with, I suppose - or rather, I'm pretty sure there is something to work with, and I'm curious about which is a superior angle.

MaC's old Beowulf sheet gave him an NP that lets him ascribe monstrous traits of the opponent, which might've been based on that equivocation.

[Skull]

Both, I guess, insofar as it would be neat for a referencer to generally heed their own reference.

The word aglœca came up in the context of old Beowulf translations and what I imagine to be recent criticisms in taking it as translated - about how all three of Beowulf's major foes are referred to this way, but also how Beowulf himself is referenced with the same word, and how Grendel's mother is allegedly never explicitly characterised as monstrous (I would check the original but my Old English is a bit rusty after not having used it for about 800 years). Wondering if there was something here to work with, I suppose - or rather, I'm pretty sure there is something to work with, and I'm curious about which is a superior angle.

*Licks thumb*

Let's see here. According to my dictionary, "āglæca" is a word that is only found in poetical texts and has varied meanings from "bringer of trouble", "evil spirit" and "mighty warrior". The word (or some variation of it) occurs 14 times in the text of Beowulf - being in reference to the titular hero himself, Sigemund, Grendel, Grendel's Mother and lastly the Dragon. Interestingly it occurs in the plural form "æglæcean" when talking about Beowulf and the Dragon as a pair.

But as for the topic at hand, you are correct in that Grendel's Mother is never strictly described in appearance and all we have to go on is the phrase "Grendles modor, ides, aglæcwif" which is a fascinatingly vague descriptor. The suffix "-wif" meaning "woman" (hence where wife comes from) to āglæca just implies it's the feminine form of whatever the original word meant. But there in-lies the problem as we're not exactly sure what the poet meant and translations have gone all sorts of different ways in interpreting it. More interestingly to me than aglæcwif is that most translations completely ignore the proceeding word - "ides" which means "Lady". The reason this may be interesting is the related Old High German word "Idisi" is used in the Merseburg Incantations to mean the Valkyries. Now despite the Valkyries being one of *the* symbols of Norse mythology, the word (as "wælcyrġe") does appear in several Old English manuscripts suggesting that Pagan Anglo-Saxons might have had some sort of variant believe and when you tie that back into Beowulf which also features references to Norse mythology, it is certainly theoretically possible that the common translation of aglæcwif for Grendel's Mother as "Monster Woman" might not be correct and something akin to "Warrior Woman" might be more accurate.

TL;DR Random, my first thought for something interesting to do with Grendel's Mother would be to have her be one of the last Valkyries which survived Ragnarok (the other being Aslaug) and finds herself facing off against the human Beowulf who later described her in a fashion that the Christian poet was able to heathenize this pagan woman as some kind of monster instead of one of Odin's followers. Thus Innocent Monster Skill methinks.

[Random]

Interesting... I'm very tempted to do that, establish a hold on the sphere of Weird Valkyries and have it in a group with that one Ölrun sheet I have currently unpublished...

[Skull]

Interesting... I'm very tempted to do that, establish a hold on the sphere of Weird Valkyries and have it in a group with that one Ölrun sheet I have currently unpublished...

Oh hey, Ölrun. I did her husband at one point. Aside from a Robin Hood variant, one of the only other two Archers I've ever made.

[Kabalisto Koga]

*Licks thumb*

Let's see here. According to my dictionary, "āglæca" is a word that is only found in poetical texts and has varied meanings from "bringer of trouble", "evil spirit" and "mighty warrior". The word (or some variation of it) occurs 14 times in the text of Beowulf - being in reference to the titular hero himself, Sigemund, Grendel, Grendel's Mother and lastly the Dragon. Interestingly it occurs in the plural form "æglæcean" when talking about Beowulf and the Dragon as a pair.

But as for the topic at hand, you are correct in that Grendel's Mother is never strictly described in appearance and all we have to go on is the phrase "Grendles modor, ides, aglæcwif" which is a fascinatingly vague descriptor. The suffix "-wif" meaning "woman" (hence where wife comes from) to āglæca just implies it's the feminine form of whatever the original word meant. But there in-lies the problem as we're not exactly sure what the poet meant and translations have gone all sorts of different ways in interpreting it. More interestingly to me than aglæcwif is that most translations completely ignore the proceeding word - "ides" which means "Lady". The reason this may be interesting is the related Old High German word "Idisi" is used in the Merseburg Incantations to mean the Valkyries. Now despite the Valkyries being one of *the* symbols of Norse mythology, the word (as "wælcyrġe") does appear in several Old English manuscripts suggesting that Pagan Anglo-Saxons might have had some sort of variant believe and when you tie that back into Beowulf which also features references to Norse mythology, it is certainly theoretically possible that the common translation of aglæcwif for Grendel's Mother as "Monster Woman" might not be correct and something akin to "Warrior Woman" might be more accurate.

TL;DR Random, my first thought for something interesting to do with Grendel's Mother would be to have her be one of the last Valkyries which survived Ragnarok (the other being Aslaug) and finds herself facing off against the human Beowulf who later described her in a fashion that the Christian poet was able to heathenize this pagan woman as some kind of monster instead of one of Odin's followers. Thus Innocent Monster Skill methinks.

Well that sounds quite fitting and conclusive also just a thought ib a christian and largely patriarchic culture i would say that the meaning of Warrior Woman can be seen s synonmyous to monster Woman as in these arch patriarchic mindset are woman which can compete with Mn in their role are monstrous and that Grendel co8uld perhps be seen as Pagan warrior perhaps as as Half jotun ?

[Skull]

Well that sounds quite fitting and conclusive

On the contrary, it isn't conclusive at all! Everything I've said is liable to be wrong, and I'm okay with that.

also just a thought ib a christian and largely patriarchic culture i would say that the meaning of Warrior Woman can be seen s synonmyous to monster Woman as in these arch patriarchic mindset are woman which can compete with Mn in their role are monstrous and that Grendel co8uld perhps be seen as Pagan warrior perhaps as as Half jotun ?

This is sounding dangerously close to a Barbara Walker fic...

[Kabalisto Koga]

On the contrary, it isn't conclusive at all! Everything I've said is liable to be wrong, and I'm okay with that.


This is sounding dangerously close to a Barbara Walker fic...

what do you meanwith Barbara walker fic who is that ?

[pinetree]

This is sounding dangerously close to a Barbara Walker fic...

That just means Koga is in tune with true TM lore.

[RoydGolden]

what do you meanwith Barbara walker fic who is that ?

Writer whose infamous for cringy "feminist" interpretations of Pagan myths that blur facts. TM seems to have used inspiration from her in the past like the Scathach=Skadi connection.

[NINE-lives]

I wonder where legendary and jishara are now. They both have been inactive for over a week. I wonder when will they come back.

[Kabalisto Koga]

Writer whose infamous for cringy "feminist" interpretations of Pagan myths that blur facts. TM seems to have used inspiration from her in the past like the Scathach=Skadi connection.

thank you for explanation Royd !

[Spelror]

I wonder where legendary and jishara are now. They both have been inactive for over a week. I wonder when will they come back.

Their powerhouses have been running haywire even before I got here, I think they definitely needed the break to deal with their lives.

[Kabalisto Koga]

just a side question as we know the MAgic Asscition and the Holy Church have a non aggression treaty , does that that mean that Mages which are memeber s of the Cloktower are normaly safe from Exexuter and the Burial Agency ? i mean as work on a MAge which family was hunted and chased down does that mean that "free unaffiliated" Mages are basically free prey for them ?

and about the Ashlock weapons iof the executers did i understood right that they can be actually anything in sort of weapon ?

Also about the Magic situation in Near east /Levantine region , could nasu verse wise had also on that context had the cirty of Harran alias Carhae a special significance as until the 11 centuries a old Mesopothamian cult of the Moondeity was located aswell that even in Islamic times it had a uniquely rich Pagan community that even blossomed still in the 9 century ? as i do use religions as indicator for magic relevant aspects and hints.

[Osrio]

I just realized I'm having a hard time coming up with an overarching theme between my three POV Masters for my Fate fic.

Sure, one of them has a split personality, but that doesn't really tell people what themes the story is trying to convey.

I haven't given this part any thought yet and now I dunno what to do. I *do* know that I want all three PoVs to be on opposite sides of the war at the very least. Apologies for the dumb question, but does anyone have any advice in this regard?

[Castellan]

I just realized I'm having a hard time coming up with an overarching theme between my three POV Masters for my Fate fic.

Sure, one of them has a split personality, but that doesn't really tell people what themes the story is trying to convey.

I haven't given this part any thought yet and now I dunno what to do. I *do* know that I want all three PoVs to be on opposite sides of the war at the very least. Apologies for the dumb question, but does anyone have any advice in this regard?

If you haven't already set up major themes, I'd recommend going through what you've already written and see what comes up.

When I started working, I set up some themes early, but others just kinda came to me as I was going through the process of writing by going back and looking at how people might react to the way a character is being presented, or what they represent in terms of social class, cultural position relative to their location, etc.

Try reading your story from the perspective of an outsider with some knowledge of reading themes, see what stands out to you.

[Kabalisto Koga]

I just realized I'm having a hard time coming up with an overarching theme between my three POV Masters for my Fate fic.

Sure, one of them has a split personality, but that doesn't really tell people what themes the story is trying to convey.

I haven't given this part any thought yet and now I dunno what to do. I *do* know that I want all three PoVs to be on opposite sides of the war at the very least. Apologies for the dumb question, but does anyone have any advice in this regard?

wel what have you for the other two Masters alerady for concepts or specialities modulated out ? or thought out already ? then i could think of a theme that could be inserted and included

[Osrio]

If you haven't already set up major themes, I'd recommend going through what you've already written and see what comes up.

When I started working, I set up some themes early, but others just kinda came to me as I was going through the process of writing by going back and looking at how people might react to the way a character is being presented, or what they represent in terms of social class, cultural position relative to their location, etc.

Try reading your story from the perspective of an outsider with some knowledge of reading themes, see what stands out to you.

Well, I could give a TLDR.

Alright so third Grail War is somehow even more of a disaster than the canon one. Einzberns fail to summon any Servant at all, IE the Grail literally prevents them from summoning and in the aftermath of the War, the Einzberns kill themselves. Zouken and therefore the Matou also die in the War, leaving only the Tohsaka. In the aftermath, a family of magi not beholden to any faction retrives the Grail and spends decades learning how it works. In the present, the family attempts to cheat the Grail's system by having a far cleaner and quicker Grail War with all the Masters on the same page, but the Grail says "Nuts to that!" and invokes the back-up system, bringing in the Clock Tower as a second faction, sorta like Apocrypha.

The first master's already got a semi-final design. An Enforcer/Freelancer type hired by the Grail family to act as a Seventh master in their plan to cheat the system.

And that's... about all I have. I've focused on the raw details, but not so much the actual themes. My plan was to try and improve on Apocrypha's concept of a Great Grail War without realizing a story needs more than raw detail.

[Castellan]

It's very difficult to pull out themes from a tl;dr but I would look at something like Strange Fake. Strange Fake also has a different faction who get involved because they think they are the masters of the Grail and a lot of the story is ultimately about the fallout from the hubris of that mode of thinking, of assuming that you could ever exert that much control over something with that much power.

Even Apoc has this, to some extent. Darnic is a control freak who tried to stack the deck in his favor in every way, but simply got outwitted at every turn by seemingly random acts.

Think about why the Grail's acting out and work from there, see what that says about the participants.