Super Tsukihime Remake Spoiler Thread

[Twi]

Does anyone know the BGM that plays when Ciel is being a boss during her fight with Noel?

[LegalLoliLover]

https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/post/show/6420524 Wait, is this who I think it is? It's tagged as such. Oh, image is SFW, but ads might be NSFW. Use Adblock.

[Petrikow]

Does anyone know the BGM that plays when Ciel is being a boss during her fight with Noel?

噴いとして、裁きとして A

https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/post/show/6420524 Wait, is this who I think it is? It's tagged as such. Oh, image is SFW, but ads might be NSFW. Use Adblock.

This is from Takeuchi's maid book. It being the appearance of Altrouge is but a rumor. Nevertheless, one can speculate.

[TomPen94]

So he just drew a random character that just happens to fit Altrouge's description?

[Petrikow]

So he just drew a random character that just happens to fit Altrouge's description?

Does she though?

She doesn't look like 14 to me.

[Twi]

Thank you.

[SeiKeo]

Does she though?

She doesn't look like 14 to me.

she sure doesn't look 12

[Crown]

https://chan.sankakucomplex.com/post/show/6420524 Wait, is this who I think it is? It's tagged as such. Oh, image is SFW, but ads might be NSFW. Use Adblock.

It's the cover of the first volume of a pair of books regarding the Maid Culture in Japan. Context here and here. Demonition has an article about it too. There's a tweet from the author that claims that the maid was supposed to have some vampire background or something like that according to Takeuchi, so people just connected the dots. It's just speculation though.

Another rumour in the same vein has it that in some online discussion, Takeuchi suggested to Nasu that they make Altrouge an Akihaface and that the idea stuck. People speculate that the black-haired maid is Altrouge.

[LegalLoliLover]

Does she though?

She doesn't look like 14 to me.

Doesn't she has 2 forms? Oh, given that, in theory, anything that a Dead Apostle (in this case, Noel) can do a True Ancestor can do better, couldn't Arc transform into her... Eco form?

[Crown]

nasu i kneel

Spoiler:

it was there the whole time, funny how it came from something written around the anime
can't wait ten years more to read shota Shiki and Eco-Arc meeting

[LegalLoliLover]

Actually, IIRC, back during one of this site's April Fools' Events, where several Type-Moon characters answered questions in person. Arc apparently already answered that question, given that she was able to appear in her "Eco" form during a photoshoot with young Shiki.

[TheSeaDragon]

All it took was nasu commenting the scrapped melty lumina story mode and was enought for the fan art to show

https://twitter.com/ventvert0/status...08478069116934

Maybe she is too ..intense for regular shiki, but nanaya? sounds legit

[LegalLoliLover]

It may be the cliché "immortals need something to pass time for eternity", but I like the parallel between Type-Moon vampires and World of Darkness vampires needing something, anything to alleviate ennui or to stave off boredom and/or their impulses. It's just that World of Darkness codifies that as the Paths of Enlightenment (of which Humanity is a viable yet vanilla option). Though, is that what Principles 原理 are supposed to be for TM vampires?

[Petrikow]

I somewhat recently translated this part of Tsukihime R.

And I was kind of wondering what everyone makes of it? (Specifically Roa's "Succession" Skill)

This scene, when first encountered by us seemed to imply that this has something to do with Idea Blood. And in a way this is still the theory that seems to hold the most water. Obviously, this is never explicitly detailed in the scene, which poses a problem in and of itself. It is no doubt still open to interpretation.

Let's establish some things:

According to Arcueid, Idea Blood is what determines an Ancestor. If one is to inherit it, one becomes an ancestor.

「<原理血戒|イデアブラッド>―――」　それは。
　ヤツの最奥の<最中|さなか>にあった、あの底なしの“孔”の事か。
「ま、言ってしまえば『王冠』ね。
　この血を継承した死徒は、どんな階梯であろうと祖に成り上がる。
　もっとも、原理血戒を動かすには千年クラスの土台がいるわ。数百年活動した程度の死徒が継承しても、その 呪いで潰される」

Mario, focuses instead of its nature as a Skill (異能).

「おう、そこだ。　死徒の固有能力はヤツらが人間だった頃に手に入れたモノを、そのまま何百年と成長させた <異能|スキル>にすぎない。
　ヤツらは自身が学んだものを吸血鬼になっても学び続け、結果としてそれが原理になっただけだ 」
「原理……？」
「その死徒の命題。生きる目的。死ねない呪い。
　<真|しん>の不老不死に至る唯一の<路|みち>。
　これを原理血戒―――イデアブラッドとヤツらは呼んでいる。ま、一生かけても終わらない夏休みの宿題とで も思っとけ」

Roa laments that Dead Apostles cannot pass on their Skill and so determines to fix this.

　死徒は子供を産めない。　死徒は異能を継承できない。
　自らの遺伝子を伝えられない。
　彼らは生き物として致命的な欠点を持っている。
　人間を超える彼等が霊長類にカウントされない最大の理由がこれである。
　つまり、死徒は死徒の子を作る事ができない。
　死徒の呪い……祖にいたっては世界と対峙するほどの呪いは、それを保有する個体が消えれば消失してしまう 。
　それは完全ではない。
　完全でないのなら、私が立ち向かうべき問題だ。
　次のテーマは決まった。
　二十七祖が持つ呪い。それらを継承する異能を開発するとしよう。

So of course, by connecting the dots here, it appears that the Succession of Idea Blood is something Roa developed. According to Mario, a Dead Apostle's 'undying thesis', their Principle (called Idea Blood by vampires), is their Skill -> But Dead Apostles cannot (originally) pass on their Skill -> Yet Arcueid says that the Succession (she even uses the same word as in Roa's thesis: 継承) of Idea Blood is what determines an Ancestor -> Thus, the fault of Dead Apostles is something Roa managed to fix, resulting in the inheritability of Idea Blood.

But then the question becomes multifold. How exactly did this work? When did it happen? Does XV stand for Roa's 15th Reincarnation, meaning, it was quite recent? Yet we know Vlov was tricked by Roa 200 years ago (per Melty Blood), so then it has to be at least that long ago, right? (and if so, what does XV stand for?) Also, Successors are now an inherent part of the Dead Apostle Ranking system, meaning it should have had quite a long standing effect?

These are all "open questions" as far as I am concerned. Perhaps we will eventually get more elaboration on this later on.

One thing I can add, is the nature of Roa's 'research', as per his conversation with Mario.

「残念ながら。私の研究は魂の分野に切り替わった。　肉体に関する研究はそれこそ下手の横好きだ。理論だけ で実践の域には達していない。
　そんな不確かな儀式は魔術とは呼べない。それは呪いと言うのだ、ベスティーノ」
「“…………つまり？”」
「徒労だったな。不老の解決法はない。せいぜい健やかに、<死|・><ぬ|・><ま|・><で|・><苦| ・><し|・><め|・>」
　……それは、恐ろしい沈黙だった。
　マイク越しですら伝わるマーリオゥの落胆。失望。憎悪。怒り。
「“…………呪いと言ったな、バルダムヨォン”」
「そう言った。アレらは私が開発した魔術基盤。
　魔術に疎い聖堂教会であろうと、司祭代行であればその成り立ちは知らされていよう」

This is seemingly talking about the other research Roa spoke about in the XV scene, the research about "Unaging". Roa says that its a Magecraft Foundation. One could make the assumption that all of his research takes the form of a Magecraft Foundation (perhaps so all of his incarnations can make use of them?). This sort of could explain how Roa's own research could have such a huge effect on Dead Apostle society. He really takes good care of them! They're quite mean to treat him like an outsider!!

Anyways, I wanted to hear if anyone else had any thoughts, so please share if you feels there are things I have overlooked, or if you've got some other idea about this topic. I feel like most of the material concerning this topic are things I've translated, so please have a look if you so need.

[LegalLoliLover]

I feel like the reason that most Dead Apostles, save for Nrvnqsr, for some reason, don't trust Roa has less to do with his research and more to do with his trustworthiness. I mean, in one way or another, he's betrayed every organization he has ever associated with.

[Petrikow]

I feel like the reason that most Dead Apostles, save for Nrvnqsr, for some reason, don't trust Roa has less to do with his research and more to do with his trustworthiness. I mean, in one way or another, he's betrayed every organization he has ever associated with.

This is what Roa has to say about it:

　祖と呼ばれる吸血鬼たちは永遠そのものを求めた。
The vampires known as the Ancestors sought eternity itself.
　私は永遠に辿り着く手段を求めた。
I, however, sought the means of reaching eternity.
　彼等が私を異端と蔑むのも当然だ。
So of course they hold my heresy in contempt.
　根本からして、私と彼等は違う生き物なのだから。
Because me and them are fundamentally different creatures.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I wasn't under the impression that Roa tricked Vlov, but rather that he did something so heinous to Zaria that Vlov was forced to honor kill her. Is there any additional evidence that he was tricked?

[Petrikow]

I wasn't under the impression that Roa tricked Vlov, but rather that he did something so heinous to Zaria that Vlov was forced to honor kill her. Is there any additional evidence that he was tricked?

There is one whole line in the entire game about what Roa did that caused Vlov to kill Zaria. And it's a tricky line too. In fact, without a bit of inferring we can't even know it's talking about Roa.

　だが、魂に刻みついた痛みは癒えなかった。
However, the pain inscribed upon his soul would not heal.
　寒さという名の乾きには抗えなかった。
He could not oppose the parchedness known as the cold
　男は、寒さから逃れる為に、騎士である事を放棄した。
The man, in order to escape the cold, abandoned being a knight.
　<拐|かどわ>かされたとはいえ。
Though he may have been tricked.
　唯一の陽差しを、自らの手で閉ざしたのだ。
He shut it out by his own hands, his sole sunshine.

Here it is. Very important translation note for this line: かどわかす (here in passive voice) is a word that in most circumstances means "kidnap". Of course, given that this is Japanese, and that it is also a verb in passive voice, it's not exactly clear who is the subject of this verb, Zaria, or Vlov? Melty Blood actually clears this up for us:

Spoiler:

So the one who was the subject of this verb was Vlov, and it was Roa who inflicted it upon him.

So why tricked? Because in context, Vlov being kidnapped makes little sense. Why would Vlov being kidnapped by Roa make him kill his liege? 拐かす actually has another meaning. To be deceived. This is the archaic meaning of the word. To be deceived and having something taken from you. Especially when written with this specific Kanji.

[AmADo VII]

I wonder if Roa was the only one involved in Zaria murder.

Vlov's other nemesis, 改造魔 is sill unknown.

many says it's Arach/Agape.

[Petrikow]

I wonder if Roa was the only one involved in Zaria murder.

Vlov's other nemesis, 改造魔 is sill unknown.

many says it's Arach/Agape.

I wondered the same thing at first, but given how Roa and Vlov interact in Melty Blood... It is Roa without a doubt.

Not to mention that Vlov also has Rose (Rita Rozay-en?) as another one of his nemesis.