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Thread: Super Tsukihime Remake Spoiler Thread

  1. #1821
    other side of Red Garden AmADo VII's Avatar
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    the one possibility is Vlov met Agape and Rita at France (Ciel Roa incident), and he just didn't like them.

    or those two said something bad about Vlov's wives.

  2. #1822
    Think we'll get to see Vlov use his stock of blood(Presumably his wives blood?) in one route?
    And IDK about Roa. I thought it was weird too when reading it. The Timetable seems off regarding the skill inheritance. But yeah, Roa is amazing.
    Last edited by Nanaya; October 13th, 2021 at 10:00 AM.

  3. #1823
    改造魔 Comun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmADo VII View Post
    Vlov's other nemesis, 改造魔 is sill unknown.
    天敵 isn't nemesis, it's someone who is a perfect counter to your gimmick. It's an ecology word referring to a species' predator, originally. It can have emotional meanings, as seen in Kohaku and Hisui's natural enemies being each other, but for fighter characters, it should be about power compatibility. Someone they're naturally at disadvantage against.

  4. #1824
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    I've found its actually easiest to think of it as "weakness". Though the concepts are not perfectly compatible. But that's just how things are.

  5. #1825
    other side of Red Garden AmADo VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    天敵 isn't nemesis, it's someone who is a perfect counter to your gimmick. It's an ecology word referring to a species' predator, originally. It can have emotional meanings, as seen in Kohaku and Hisui's natural enemies being each other, but for fighter characters, it should be about power compatibility. Someone they're naturally at disadvantage against.
    I used nemesis because I don't know the correct translation.

    also 天敵 can be said even if the person never meet his counter right?

  6. #1826
    Deadpan Dead People LegalLoliLover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    I wasn't under the impression that Roa tricked Vlov, but rather that he did something so heinous to Zaria that Vlov was forced to honor kill her. Is there any additional evidence that he was tricked?
    A "trick" isn't necessarily a lie (yes, Kyubey paraphrase), but Roa somehow forced Vlov into a situation to do something that Vlov really wouldn't want to do otherwise.
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  7. #1827
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrikow View Post

    Anyways, I wanted to hear if anyone else had any thoughts, so please share if you feels there are things I have overlooked, or if you've got some other idea about this topic. I feel like most of the material concerning this topic are things I've translated, so please have a look if you so need.
    I'm quite doubt about what Roa said in XV, I mean, the idea of "devise a technique to make the whole Principle one's own, to detune it for oneself" is pretty obvious and others may have thought of it already. There are many magus from AoG who became one of the first DAs (League of the Age of Gods) and they were subordinates of Crimson Moon, who left footprinted known as DAA, so they must have much more knowledge about DA than Roa.
    Roa only learned about DA for a few hundred years and just recently knew how to use the basic ability like Curse of Restoration properly. Same case for Magic, I rather believe nonsense talk from Aoko herself than knowledge that magus from Clock Tower have.
    I think Roa may make it easier to obtain Principle and pass it (Ideal Blood Mosaic from Arach and Vlov case) rather than a whole new technique for DAA to pass their Principle to successor.

  8. #1828
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misaya View Post
    I'm quite doubt about what Roa said in XV, I mean, the idea of "devise a technique to make the whole Principle one's own, to detune it for oneself" is pretty obvious and others may have thought of it already. There are many magus from AoG who became one of the first DAs (League of the Age of Gods) and they were subordinates of Crimson Moon, who left footprinted known as DAA, so they must have much more knowledge about DA than Roa.
    Roa only learned about DA for a few hundred years and just recently knew how to use the basic ability like Curse of Restoration properly. Same case for Magic, I rather believe nonsense talk from Aoko herself than knowledge that magus from Clock Tower have.
    I think Roa may make it easier to obtain Principle and pass it (Ideal Blood Mosaic from Arach and Vlov case) rather than a whole new technique for DAA to pass their Principle to successor.
    The problem with this is that we just have to believe that Roa is misinformed, and this is rarely a good argument. I'd actually like to believe some variety of what you are suggesting, given that it seems to fix a lot of the problems with what I just presented, but then I could not justify it using the text.

    That's the problem. If we look at the actual text, it's hard to actually come to other conclusions. Roa even mentions the 27 DAA specifically when talking about this flaw that Dead Apostles have, going as far as giving an example with Lord Rozay-en.

    One "alternative solution" I thought about was that Roa's research more specifically concerns the succession of the Skill itself, in a way that was previously impossible. One could perhaps see Idea Blood as something that was always possible to pass on, but without the Skill itself. Perhaps this is then what marks succession, even if it doesn't actually result in any major information being passed on from Ancestor to Successor.

    Obviously this also has a lot of holes. Idea Blood is the Skill, as per Mario. So inheriting it without it seems pointless.

    I was watching a Japanese person speculate about this a little bit on youtube. His idea is that a Principle and Idea Blood are two fairly distinct concepts, and shouldn't be conflated. He says that with the footnote that Mario obviously says they're the same thing, meaning now we have to believe Mario is lying instead. His theory was that Idea Blood is specifically only what the Ancestors possess, and Principles are something lower ranked Dead Apostles have. So then we can just go, well Idea Blood is inheritable, but Roa wanted to make it so he could take Dead Apostles Principles instead? Yet the dictionary seems to suggest that its Roa who taught Vlov how to take Zaria's Idea Blood, and she was an Ancestor. In addition, once again, Roa talks specifically about Ancestors when he's going on about his spiel with their succession not being possible.

    There's also the related angle of Ciel's usage of Idea Blood. This seems to hint that through Roa's knowledge, she has acquired the ability to use the Idea Bloods for herself. Perhaps this whole thing is just that, an ability for Roa to take Idea Bloods and turn them into Magecraft. But then what of his interactions with Vlov? Why would Roa say an Ancestor's Skill disappears when they die, if that's simply untrue? Is everyone a liar?

    Finally I'd just like to add that as alluded to, I'd really like that the thing that I posted is not the case. It's just that I can't seem to find any other good explanations to what is going on in the text, and that frustrates me.

  9. #1829
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    I thought the Principle might be the precursor from which the Idea Blood develops, marking the DA as an Ancestor, and maybe what Roa devised is kind of like how Pucci from JJBA passed on Stands to new wielders via White Snake. They had to have some previous compatibility with the Stand/Principle. I dunno, I'm just spitballing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  10. #1830
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    I thought the Principle might be the precursor from which the Idea Blood develops, marking the DA as an Ancestor, and maybe what Roa devised is kind of like how Pucci from JJBA passed on Stands to new wielders via White Snake. They had to have some previous compatibility with the Stand/Principle. I dunno, I'm just spitballing.
    The dictionary only lists an entry for Idea Blood, and not Principles. If they were quantifiably different I imagine that much would have been made clear. As I said, Mario basically just comes out and says they're the same thing. It seems more like a Principle is something that anyone can acquire with a sufficiently long lifespan. In the case of a Dead Apostle, they call this concept Idea Blood.

  11. #1831
    other side of Red Garden AmADo VII's Avatar
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    we will get more details about principle and idea blood once Red Garden is out.

    we have perfect example for that, Sacchin route.

  12. #1832
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmADo VII View Post
    we will get more details about principle and idea blood once Red Garden is out.

    we have perfect example for that, Sacchin route.
    Hopefully before then. I don't want to be blueballed for that many years.

  13. #1833
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrikow View Post
    The problem with this is that we just have to believe that Roa is misinformed, and this is rarely a good argument. I'd actually like to believe some variety of what you are suggesting, given that it seems to fix a lot of the problems with what I just presented, but then I could not justify it using the text.

    That's the problem. If we look at the actual text, it's hard to actually come to other conclusions. Roa even mentions the 27 DAA specifically when talking about this flaw that Dead Apostles have, going as far as giving an example with Lord Rozay-en.

    One "alternative solution" I thought about was that Roa's research more specifically concerns the succession of the Skill itself, in a way that was previously impossible. One could perhaps see Idea Blood as something that was always possible to pass on, but without the Skill itself. Perhaps this is then what marks succession, even if it doesn't actually result in any major information being passed on from Ancestor to Successor.

    Obviously this also has a lot of holes. Idea Blood is the Skill, as per Mario. So inheriting it without it seems pointless.

    I was watching a Japanese person speculate about this a little bit on youtube. His idea is that a Principle and Idea Blood are two fairly distinct concepts, and shouldn't be conflated. He says that with the footnote that Mario obviously says they're the same thing, meaning now we have to believe Mario is lying instead. His theory was that Idea Blood is specifically only what the Ancestors possess, and Principles are something lower ranked Dead Apostles have. So then we can just go, well Idea Blood is inheritable, but Roa wanted to make it so he could take Dead Apostles Principles instead? Yet the dictionary seems to suggest that its Roa who taught Vlov how to take Zaria's Idea Blood, and she was an Ancestor. In addition, once again, Roa talks specifically about Ancestors when he's going on about his spiel with their succession not being possible.

    There's also the related angle of Ciel's usage of Idea Blood. This seems to hint that through Roa's knowledge, she has acquired the ability to use the Idea Bloods for herself. Perhaps this whole thing is just that, an ability for Roa to take Idea Bloods and turn them into Magecraft. But then what of his interactions with Vlov? Why would Roa say an Ancestor's Skill disappears when they die, if that's simply untrue? Is everyone a liar?

    Finally I'd just like to add that as alluded to, I'd really like that the thing that I posted is not the case. It's just that I can't seem to find any other good explanations to what is going on in the text, and that frustrates me.
    I'm quite like this idea actually, so it can be say that Idea Blood and Principle are separate things. The principle itself cannot be passed on. Then, the original technique is pass down Idea Blood to successor and they add their own Principle into Idea Blood and become an Ancestor. While Roa's idea is pass down Idea Blood and modified Principle of predecessor to fit successor. So the Principle in a sense have been inherited.
    With that idea, Mario still right that if you learn hard enough, one day, you can obtain Principle and apply it into Idea Blood to become Ancestor.
    Also, if I remember right, Van-Fem seems to say that the way DA live different to each other, so reject humanity just one part that Jester achieve, cant be apply for all DA.
    Roa seem right when he mentioned Lord Rozay-en to strengthen his point, but I dont think so, Gransurg Blackmore and the Blackmore family quite a debunk that his idea is out of date. In Case File, it mentioned that the Blackmore family is special, distinctive from all magus that they inherited the power of Black Wing Lord, can be said that they are his successor. The Blackmore seem modified the Principle way of Gransurg into them or maybe they just inherited directly. I may need to read Case File again after this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AmADo VII View Post
    we will get more details about principle and idea blood once Red Garden is out.

    we have perfect example for that, Sacchin route.
    Only if that route become a thing. Otherwise Red Garden is full about Oni and Psychic

  14. #1834
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrikow View Post
    I was watching a Japanese person speculate about this a little bit on youtube.
    Btw, can I have a link direct to this one, I want to have a look

  15. #1835
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misaya View Post
    Btw, can I have a link direct to this one, I want to have a look

  16. #1836
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petrikow View Post
    The dictionary only lists an entry for Idea Blood, and not Principles. If they were quantifiably different I imagine that much would have been made clear. As I said, Mario basically just comes out and says they're the same thing. It seems more like a Principle is something that anyone can acquire with a sufficiently long lifespan. In the case of a Dead Apostle, they call this concept Idea Blood.
    Could the Principle actually be the same thing as one's Origin? I haven't seen that concept in TM in a hot minute, unless I'm forgetting a recent example when it came up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  17. #1837
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    Could the Principle actually be the same thing as one's Origin? I haven't seen that concept in TM in a hot minute, unless I'm forgetting a recent example when it came up.
    I wondered the same when it first starting coming up.

    The principal (heh) difference is that an Origin is something you are born with, while a Principle is something you acquire through a long amount of time. (As an aside, Shirou's origin is "turning into sword", so maybe its related to that? That seems like kind of a stretch though)

  18. #1838
    改造魔 Comun's Avatar
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    I just rechecked Arach's introduction and I'm thinking the Toonos (and consequently the Saikis) being an architect family was a misread on my part. Arach is definitely a genius architect on the side, but there's nothing really indicating that's what she and Makihisa went to college together for.

  19. #1839
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    So the Tohnos don't have a huge architecture business? How do they make their money?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrikow View Post
    I wondered the same when it first starting coming up.

    The principal (heh) difference is that an Origin is something you are born with, while a Principle is something you acquire through a long amount of time. (As an aside, Shirou's origin is "turning into sword", so maybe its related to that? That seems like kind of a stretch though)
    I was kind of thinking along those lines, since Shirou's Origin is Sword, maybe UBW as a development of his inner world based on that Origin, would be his Principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  20. #1840
    祖 Ancestor OnesFleetingGlory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    So the Tohnos don't have a huge architecture business? How do they make their money?

    - - - Updated - - -


    I was kind of thinking along those lines, since Shirou's Origin is Sword, maybe UBW as a development of his inner world based on that Origin, would be his Principle.
    So RM = Principle? Come to think of it, Shirou's Origin was not originally a Sword, only that it changed due to Avalon's influence, so his is much closer to a Principle in nature than one might think.
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