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Thread: Super Tsukihime Remake Spoiler Thread

  1. #1841
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    So here's a more comprehensive post about the other possibility regarding Idea Blood.

    Idea Blood itself is distinct from a Principle (let's just ignore Mario), and is what defines the 27 Dead Apostle Ancestors. If a Dead Apostle is to inherit it, their rank shoots up to IX, and they take the place of the previous Ancestor. However, they do not inherit the Skill of the previous Ancestor (as per Roa), but instead only gain the power to become an Ancestor.

    (Idea Blood is perhaps related to the Crimson Moon. 「月から地上に落ちた真紅の染み」<--- This. In this case, an Idea Blood is more of a literal crown than perhaps we thought earlier. It is a 'thing' that marks the person as an Ancestor, rather than the Skill of the Ancestor. Again, lets ignore Mario.)

    Roa's research then, is simply a question of how to preserve that Skill together with the Idea Blood. Ciel, using Roa's knowledge, shows us the results of this, having acquired the Idea Blood of Ancestors, able to somewhat turn them into usable Magecraft.

    The questions then become different. Why does Mario then say that a Principle and Idea Blood are the same thing? Doesn't Ciel having Idea Blood and using their Skills even prove the two are irrevocably connected? What exactly did Roa do to Vlov then? Perhaps just a trick for him to overcome the age problem? Is that related to his research into Succession, or not? Was Lord Rozay-en's worries simply that he couldn't have real kids? Why does Arcueid call the defeated DAA by their Principle, instead of their Idea Blood?

  2. #1842
    改造魔 Comun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciel Day 9, last scene
    Take Dead Apostle as an example. Although they can share their immortality with their thralls, their Skills aren't passed down. [...] Dead Apostles can't inherit Skills. They can't pass down their genes. They have a fatal flaw as living beings. This the main reason why they don't count as the prime species despite surpassing humans.
    Skill are intransferrable, or at least used to be before Roa's succession research.

    A Dead Apostle's curse... one that reaching the level of Ancestor is enough to oppose the world, disappears with the loss of the individual possessing it. That's not perfect. Until it is, I have a problem to face. My next research theme is decided. The curses held by the 27 Ancestors. I'll develop a Skill to enable their succession.
    Succession of Idea Blood seemingly wasn't a thing either. I guess the Rose Prophecies are a discarded piece of old lore, then. I doesn't make sense for Rita to have this ability if succession isn't a natural part of the DAA's life cycle.

    Principles are one-of-a-kind. They can't be imitated, and duplicating them weakens them with the loss of uniqueness.
    Curious how Principles operate on a similar rule as Mystery. The less your power is shared with others, the stronger it gets. Also, this line possibly debunks the idea of Principle = Origin, because we've seen three people have the same Origin.

    That's what this Succession is for. I will devise a method to make all those Principles mine and detune them for my personal use. "XV: the succession of all curses and liabilities, and how to use it. Alternatively titled: forced transfer of one's Skill and strength of destiny. That's how I'll label the abilities of my next self.
    XV = 15 = Ciel. The background picture here being a coffin labeled XIV supports the idea. Turns out her going around stealing Idea Bloods from the DAA she killed was her intended use all along. I feel like the Ancestors have a lot better reasons to hate Roa here in the remake.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    What's making the most sense to me is that Roa figured out curse transfer for Idea Bloods when he planned to become Ciel and hog everything, and everyone else was like "wait, we could have done that all along?!", but that's generates chronological inconsistency with Vlov killing Zaria in the 1800s. But then again, Roa is the guy who was born at the end of the 15th century and reincarnated for 800 years until 2014. His timeline is already full of holes.

    At least Vlov's case is easy to guess as a curse transfer experiment worded as "I can teach how to free your liege from the cold".

  3. #1843
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnesFleetingGlory View Post
    So RM = Principle? Come to think of it, Shirou's Origin was not originally a Sword, only that it changed due to Avalon's influence, so his is much closer to a Principle in nature than one might think.
    Remember how in old Tsuki canon, every DAA had to have a Reality Marble? Obviously that got scaled up and changed so that the thing DAAs needed was the Idea Blood/Principle.

    - - - Updated - - -

    My real question is how the Idea Blood originally comes about? Does each unique Idea Blood stem from the Principle of the Dead Apostle that has been cultivated for at least a millenia? Is the list stuck at 27, or could potentially new Idea Bloods come about from DAs who've had the time to develop their Principles?

    Also, maybe the Rozay-en case is different because Lord Rozay-en and his daughters all turned at once, so maybe they share a Principle/Idea Blood?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, which 3 had the same Origin?
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  4. #1844
    A piece of blue glass moon AmADo VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    Remember how in old Tsuki canon, every DAA had to have a Reality Marble? Obviously that got scaled up and changed so that the thing DAAs needed was the Idea Blood/Principle.

    - - - Updated - - -

    My real question is how the Idea Blood originally comes about? Does each unique Idea Blood stem from the Principle of the Dead Apostle that has been cultivated for at least a millenia? Is the list stuck at 27, or could potentially new Idea Bloods come about from DAs who've had the time to develop their Principles?
    we need Sacchin route to answer these question.

    the story is going to be how she develop her principle into idea blood 'depletion garden'.

  5. #1845
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    Skill are intransferrable, or at least used to be before Roa's succession research.



    Succession of Idea Blood seemingly wasn't a thing either. I guess the Rose Prophecies are a discarded piece of old lore, then. I doesn't make sense for Rita to have this ability if succession isn't a natural part of the DAA's life cycle.



    Curious how Principles operate on a similar rule as Mystery. The less your power is shared with others, the stronger it gets. Also, this line possibly debunks the idea of Principle = Origin, because we've seen three people have the same Origin.



    XV = 15 = Ciel. The background picture here being a coffin labeled XIV supports the idea. Turns out her going around stealing Idea Bloods from the DAA she killed was her intended use all along. I feel like the Ancestors have a lot better reasons to hate Roa here in the remake.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    What's making the most sense to me is that Roa figured out curse transfer for Idea Bloods when he planned to become Ciel and hog everything, and everyone else was like "wait, we could have done that all along?!", but that's generates chronological inconsistency with Vlov killing Zaria in the 1800s. But then again, Roa is the guy who was born at the end of the 15th century and reincarnated for 800 years until 2014. His timeline is already full of holes.

    At least Vlov's case is easy to guess as a curse transfer experiment worded as "I can teach how to free your liege from the cold".
    Yes, the timeline really is the problem with this reasoning. Though as you say, Roa is no stranger to bad chronology. Speaking of Roa's bad chronology. Is SHIKI his 16th or 17th incarnation?

    『オーバーキルも結構だがね。
     わずかな魔力でも象を倒す努力もしろと伝えておけ。
     まあ、パン焼きすらできないあの性格では
     ミクロ単位の精密作業は一生できないだろうが』
     17回にも及ぶ転生。
     その度に“新たな魔術の最奥”を築いてきた天才は、
     先輩の奥の手を“無駄が多い”と嘲笑った。
     自分ならより精密に、無駄なく、あの大魔術を行えるという事実と共に。

    And then this one with the double whammy.

    「ええ、その通りですね。
     ロアが死徒に成ったのは今から八百年ほど前。それから現代まで転生した回数は16回。そのことごとくを、アルクェイド・ブリュンスタッドは殺害しています」

    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    Remember how in old Tsuki canon, every DAA had to have a Reality Marble? Obviously that got scaled up and changed so that the thing DAAs needed was the Idea Blood/Principle.

    - - - Updated - - -

    My real question is how the Idea Blood originally comes about? Does each unique Idea Blood stem from the Principle of the Dead Apostle that has been cultivated for at least a millenia? Is the list stuck at 27, or could potentially new Idea Bloods come about from DAs who've had the time to develop their Principles?

    Also, maybe the Rozay-en case is different because Lord Rozay-en and his daughters all turned at once, so maybe they share a Principle/Idea Blood?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, which 3 had the same Origin?
    Mario (who might be wrong???) says that anyone could theoretically develop it. Arcueid does confidently state that there are 27 Ancestors, and that number only. This is not a question of the actual amount, but something about their "way of being". As I alluded to in my previous post, there is some connection with the Crimson Moon. I've seen a lot of Japanese theorists speculate that Idea Blood is something they've gained from the Crimson Moon. Thus the usage of the word 戴いた (crowned), when Arcueid is talking about Idea Blood. By who? Presumably the Crimson Moon.
    Last edited by Petrikow; October 14th, 2021 at 12:14 AM.

  6. #1846
    改造魔 Comun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    Also, which 3 had the same Origin?
    Shiki, Kirie, and Fujino. Araya was trying to experiment with the Origin of Nihil and managed to find 3 specimens in just one town. Repeat Origins should be pretty commin.

  7. #1847
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    I guess that makes sense, given that Dead Apostles and True Ancestors specifically have always had their roots traced back to Crimson Moon, and other vampiric beings like Yu don't count, so I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility for DAAs to be crowned by CM.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    Shiki, Kirie, and Fujino. Araya was trying to experiment with the Origin of Nihil and managed to find 3 specimens in just one town. Repeat Origins should be pretty commin.
    Forgot about that. Thanks for the reminder. I was thinking for a minute it'd be some commonality between Waver and Holmes or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  8. #1848
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrikow View Post
    As I alluded to in my previous post, there is some connection with the Crimson Moon. I've seen a lot of Japanese theorists speculate that Idea Blood is something they've gained from the Crimson Moon. Thus the usage of the word 戴いた (crowned), when Arcueid is talking about Idea Blood. By who? Presumably the Crimson Moon.
    Clearly that Crimson Moon have a big role here, in the description about rank IX - Ancestor stated that "A crimson stain that fell from the moon onto the earth" and in Kagetsu Tohya said that DAA are footprinted of Crimson Moon left on earth. When Vlov talked about he is an Ancestor to Arcueid, she changed to her other self to verify the new Ancestor. Also in Ciel route, when Vlov's Principle can be explained in human mean, Arcueid confirmed that while summoning Crimson Moon down and make that Principle weaker.

  9. #1849
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misaya View Post
    Also in Ciel route, when Vlov's Principle can be explained in human mean, Arcueid confirmed that while summoning Crimson Moon down and make that Principle weaker.
    What scene are you talking about here?

  10. #1850
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrikow View Post
    What scene are you talking about here?
    When Shiki can see Vlov's Principle and know about his past. I remember that Arcueid summoned Crimson Moon and agreed with Shiki that he can kill that Principle

  11. #1851
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misaya View Post
    When Shiki can see Vlov's Principle and know about his past. I remember that Arcueid summoned Crimson Moon and agreed with Shiki that he can kill that Principle
     星の内海、ソラを覆う天蓋は謳う。
    The inner sea of the planet, the canopy covering the skies celebrates.
     祖に呪いあれ。
    A curse upon the Ancestors.
     人の世に呪いあれ。
    A curse upon the world of man.
     いまだ原理は定着せず。この星の<礎|いしずえ>はあまりに脆い。
    The Principle is yet to take hold. This planet’s cornerstone is far too brittle.
    Ah, this part. I'm not entirely sure that this is "summoning" the Crimson Moon by Arcueid (obviously, a CG of the Crimson Moon is shown here), or that it's even her 'talking' to him. (This is all spoken by the narrator, it doesn't have any quotes around it)

    I'm just curious, did you play the MTL version of the game?

  12. #1852
    HSTP 500 Internal S ervant  Error aldeayeah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petrikow View Post
    Yes, the timeline really is the problem with this reasoning. Though as you say, Roa is no stranger to bad chronology. Speaking of Roa's bad chronology. Is SHIKI his 16th or 17th incarnation?

    『オーバーキルも結構だがね。
     わずかな魔力でも象を倒す努力もしろと伝えておけ。
     まあ、パン焼きすらできないあの性格では
     ミクロ単位の精密作業は一生できないだろうが』
     17回にも及ぶ転生。
     その度に“新たな魔術の最奥”を築いてきた天才は、
     先輩の奥の手を“無駄が多い”と嘲笑った。
     自分ならより精密に、無駄なく、あの大魔術を行えるという事実と共に。

    And then this one with the double whammy.

    「ええ、その通りですね。
     ロアが死徒に成ったのは今から八百年ほど前。それから現代まで転生した回数は16回。そのことごとくを、アルクェイド・ブリュンスタッドは殺害しています」



    Mario (who might be wrong???) says that anyone could theoretically develop it. Arcueid does confidently state that there are 27 Ancestors, and that number only. This is not a question of the actual amount, but something about their "way of being". As I alluded to in my previous post, there is some connection with the Crimson Moon. I've seen a lot of Japanese theorists speculate that Idea Blood is something they've gained from the Crimson Moon. Thus the usage of the word 戴いた (crowned), when Arcueid is talking about Idea Blood. By who? Presumably the Crimson Moon.
    You mean all DAA would need CM juice, either directly or by proxy of a TA?

    That would be a change considering we used to have self made DAAs like Nrvnqsr

    Or just "acknowledgment" by CM/his representatives?
    don't quote me on this

  13. #1853
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aldeayeah View Post
    You mean all DAA would need CM juice, either directly or by proxy of a TA?

    That would be a change considering we used to have self made DAAs like Nrvnqsr
    That would be the implication.

    I'm not entirely sure myself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Actually, I suppose even in the case of people like Nrvnqsr, his origins as a vampire may still lie in Magecraft, but in order to ascend to the position of an Ancestor, he would have had to take the previous holder's Idea Blood. So in that sense, there is not necessarily any disparity from the old lore, just new things to add on.

  14. #1854
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrikow View Post
    Ah, this part. I'm not entirely sure that this is "summoning" the Crimson Moon by Arcueid (obviously, a CG of the Crimson Moon is shown here), or that it's even her 'talking' to him. (This is all spoken by the narrator, it doesn't have any quotes around it)

    I'm just curious, did you play the MTL version of the game?
    Crimson Moon only be "summoned" when his successor (Altrouge and Arcueid) reach the state that their existence scale close to him, then there is Crimsom Moon. In this case, that is Arcueid close to her original True Ancestor Arcueid state. In TA Arc state, she always show up with Crimson Moon (when kill Ciel Roa in the past, when she break into Sialim's Logos React World,...).
    At the end of the fight, Mario said that the area is in effect of Marble Phantasm. Arcueid did once use MP to get CM image show up to deal with Tatari. And because her MP can call forth inner sea of star and the narrator of that scene is inner sea of star agreed with Shiki. I lean toward that is Arcueid agree with that herself.
    TA Arcueid's place is also inner sea of star (MBAACC) so I think in that scene, Arcueid boosted her existence scale and MP so inner sea of star effect the area of Vlov fight and why CM appear

  15. #1855
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrikow View Post
    I'm just curious, did you play the MTL version of the game?
    No, my friend livestream and do verbal-translating while playing

  16. #1856
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One asterism42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    Could the Principle actually be the same thing as one's Origin? I haven't seen that concept in TM in a hot minute, unless I'm forgetting a recent example when it came up.
    IIRC Origins get a mention in FGO, Holmes's is "Elucidation"
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    He's just putting the bone of his sword into other people until it explodes and lets out parts of him inside them.
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    Genderswaps are terrible, but I think I and other people would hate them less if Fate didn't keep ignoring actual heroines throughout history and folklore. Like, why bother turning Francis Drake into a woman when Ching Shih and Grace O'Malley exist?
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    Fate Zero is just Fate Stay Night for people who think Shirou is too girly

  17. #1857
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misaya View Post
    Crimson Moon only be "summoned" when his successor (Altrouge and Arcueid) reach the state that their existence scale close to him, then there is Crimsom Moon. In this case, that is Arcueid close to her original True Ancestor Arcueid state. In TA Arc state, she always show up with Crimson Moon (when kill Ciel Roa in the past, when she break into Sialim's Logos React World,...).
    At the end of the fight, Mario said that the area is in effect of Marble Phantasm. Arcueid did once use MP to get CM image show up to deal with Tatari. And because her MP can call forth inner sea of star and the narrator of that scene is inner sea of star agreed with Shiki. I lean toward that is Arcueid agree with that herself.
    TA Arcueid's place is also inner sea of star (MBAACC) so I think in that scene, Arcueid boosted her existence scale and MP so inner sea of star effect the area of Vlov fight and why CM appear
    No doubt did she use her Marble Phantasm to dampen the effects of Vlov's Principle. At the end of the day, that's the only method she has to achieve such an effect. As noted, Mario also says something about it afterwards.

    But I'm doubtful that she summoned the Crimson Moon to do so. Arcueid already showed off the ability to dampen Vlov's aura of cold in her own route (she mentions something about coating the ground), and there are no mentions of the Crimson Moon. Obviously, it is never mentioned in the narration here either, but we do get the CG of it during this segment with Vlov's past.

    Given the context, it seems much more likely that this is something Shiki is able to see because he looked so deep into Vlov's Principle. This probably more hints at something regarding the ultimate truth of Idea Blood/Principles, but exactly what that is probably not something we can fully understand with out current information.
    Last edited by Petrikow; October 14th, 2021 at 03:34 AM.

  18. #1858
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrikow View Post
    Given the context, it seems much more likely that this is something Shiki is able to see because he looked so deep into Vlov's Principle. This probably more hints at something regarding the ultimate truth of Idea Blood/Principles, but exactly what that is probably not something we can fully understand with out current information.
    I agree with you that nothing seem to be clear at this point. I just point out some that may be the hint about connection between Idea Blood and Crimson Moon. If that true, there is the way to reverse Idea Blood and Principle by using Crimson Moon. Same case with Arcueid reverse Tatari back to Zepia by using Crimson Moon and cancel contract that Altrouge use CM to make. Btw, with the thing called Idea Blood appear, I doubt that Altrouge mess up with Zepia's Idea Blood so he became Tatari and that why she is called Master of Blood and Contract (Using CM to make a contract bound with blood).

    Also, she dont need to summon him directly. It could be she boost her existence scale to use much power so the side effect is Crimson Moon eventually appear. That why Archetype Earth/TA Arcueid always come with Crimson Moon.

  19. #1859
    HSTP 500 Internal S ervant  Error aldeayeah's Avatar
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    It would be fun if CM/full power Arc had the authority to send DAAs to their room, no Idea Blood for you, do not pass go, do not collect $200.
    don't quote me on this

  20. #1860
    Quote Originally Posted by aldeayeah View Post
    It would be fun if CM/full power Arc had the authority to send DAAs to their room, no Idea Blood for you, do not pass go, do not collect $200.
    Eh, not really. CM is powerful enough without needing stuff like that. Perhaps a Nega Skill like the Beasts to be immune to the Idea Bloods would be more fitting?

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