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Thread: World History Discussion

  1. #141
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle Nanashi(kari)'s Avatar
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  2. #142
    アルテミット・ソット Ultimate Thot Five_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    Octavian and Charlemagne were still violent conquerors who maintained their power and authority through violence. Charlemagne especially, unless you've forgotten about the Saxons, among other people.

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    I'll admit Octavian brought stability after decades of civil war, but he was still a conqueror and a tyrant by definition.
    I mean, if I went 'round saying I was an emperor just 'cause some moistened salad lobbed an adoption at me, they'd put me away!
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  3. #143
    Deadpan Dead People LegalLoliLover's Avatar
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    Weren't the older definitions of dictator and tyrant much less... pointed than the modern definitions?
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  4. #144
    地獄の海軍大提督 Kamera's Avatar
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    For the former yeah probably, for the latter not really.

  5. #145
    不死 Undead Theadier's Avatar
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    I join the discussion saying that my favorite emperor is Trajano, because he was born relatively close to the place where I live and because one of the considered best emperors had to be of Hispanic origin.

    and if the title tyrant at least in classical Rome has much less negative nuances than those it obtained a posteriori.

  6. #146
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    Yeah, tyrant started as a neutral descriptor for a type of ruler, but then became a pejorative, though that pejorative has remained stable. Also, in a Roman context, I think you're mixing up tyrant and dictator. Tyrants were Greek, dictators were Roman.
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  7. #147
    アルテミット・ソット Ultimate Thot Five_X's Avatar
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    Except for Tyrannosaurus Rex, which has always been sick as hell.
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  8. #148
    Deadpan Dead People LegalLoliLover's Avatar
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    It's funny that "orthodox" history declares Yoshitsune (AKA Ushiwakamaru) has the good guy and the Taira as the bad guys, despite the fact that the only reason that Yoshitsune was even able to fight the Taira was because Kiyomori spared their lives to begin with. As I mentioned before, in these settings, you don't become the "bad guy" by doing things considered "evil" nowadays, such as the killing of women, children, and other civilians. You become the "bad guy" by not giving a shit about conventions, such as respecting (Buddhist) monk and emperor. Of course, if you have the power and like salt, you can always double down on your "blasphemies" by calling yourself the Demon King, like Nobu did, but that's only if you have some sort of "edge" that essentially makes you invincible against most of your opponents of the time. In the case of Nobu, it was guns and (a mild interest in a different) God.
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  9. #149
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Five_X View Post
    Except for Tyrannosaurus Rex, which has always been sick as hell.
    True, especially with feathers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LegalLoliLover View Post
    It's funny that "orthodox" history declares Yoshitsune (AKA Ushiwakamaru) has the good guy and the Taira as the bad guys, despite the fact that the only reason that Yoshitsune was even able to fight the Taira was because Kiyomori spared their lives to begin with. As I mentioned before, in these settings, you don't become the "bad guy" by doing things considered "evil" nowadays, such as the killing of women, children, and other civilians. You become the "bad guy" by not giving a shit about conventions, such as respecting (Buddhist) monk and emperor. Of course, if you have the power and like salt, you can always double down on your "blasphemies" by calling yourself the Demon King, like Nobu did, but that's only if you have some sort of "edge" that essentially makes you invincible against most of your opponents of the time. In the case of Nobu, it was guns and (a mild interest in a different) God.
    Nobunaga was just competent, not invincible. The only reason he beat the Uesugi, Takeda, and latter Hōjō is because he outlived their great daimyo and was able to take advantage of their successors' relative mediocrity.

    Also, of course the conventional historiography places the Genji as the good guys, since they and their supporters wrote the history of the Genpei Wars, no?
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  10. #150
    Deadpan Dead People LegalLoliLover's Avatar
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    Yes, given that Nobunaga got Caesar'd, he was obviously not literally invincible, but stuff that was previously lauded as powerful, such as the Takeda Cavalry and the much large Imagawa army, were defeated surprisingly easily.
    Well, I certainly agree with your last part, in that the winner is generally the ones who write history. Of course, there are exceptions, such as the Romance of the 3 Kingdoms, which makes the losers the good guys, but that might just be an author's choice, given that Luo Guanzhong simped for Zhuge Liang.
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  11. #151
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    The Takeda cavalry mostly fell because Katsuyori and his younger generals insisted on a charge against Nobunaga's arquebusiers in terrain not well-suited for a charge. I'm fairly certain Shingen decisively beat Ieyasu and Nobunaga, and Kenshin defeated Nobunaga at I think Tadorigawa?

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    As for the Imagawa army, I mostly agree with your assessment, but with the caveat that his balls of steel had to be accompanied by Yohimoto's carelessness. Still, I admire Nobunaga for the risk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  12. #152
    Deadpan Dead People LegalLoliLover's Avatar
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    Then the question is how much of the Takeda loss was based on the guns and how much on the terrain. As for Okehazama, there's this thing that, for some reason, most soldiers throughout Asian history just don't like fighting in the rain, not necessarily because of any tactical reasons. They just don't like the rain. During the European campaigns vs. the Qing Empire, the European commanders noted that the Chinese (or Manchurian, if you want to get technical about the actual empire) soldiers weren't afraid of bullets but were afraid of raindrops. Therefore, actually attacking in the rain is often an easy way to attempt a surprise attack. Sometimes, it works (as with Nobunaga at Okehazama). Sometimes, it doesn't (Guan Yu at Fan Castle).
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