Which TM relationship is the most toxic?

[OnesFleetingGlory]

Takeuchi's art is good, his anatomy is horrible, unfortunately. I mean, it doesn't look particularly bad outside from the thin legs, the issue is that it has no relation to real world measures whatsoever.

The fingers, man. The fingers often feel off, like he wanted them to be fancy but it ended up like they underwent a botched surgery.

[Ideofago]

That too. I've gotten past the monkey arms but goddamn man, those fingers in the Aoko hug of the original VN.

[asterism42]

Didn't he lose a bunch of his memories when he was summoned, though?

While it's possible that he was missing a few, a far more likely explanation is that he was lying.

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Like, I am pretty certain he recognizes Rin immediately

[madarra]

Didnt a interview say that whatever confusion Archer actually had when summoned, he got over it/worked it out night 1 while fixing the hole in the ceiling.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Didnt a interview say that whatever confusion Archer actually had when summoned, he got over it/worked it out night 1 while fixing the hole in the ceiling.

That's what I remember being the case, and it makes sense. Given that his existence as a CG has spanned several lifetimes and across time and space, it makes sense that his recollection of his past life is more than a bit fuzzy at first.

[Nanashi(kari)]

Didn't he lose a bunch of his memories when he was summoned, though?

At the beginning of the game, his memory was supposedly fuzzy due to an imperfect summoning, but in reality that was only partially true.The night he was summoned (after Rin went to sleep), he assessed the present situation, figured out his circumstances, and concluded that the opportunity to complete his objective had at long last appeared.
However, he didn’t realize the girl who summoned him was Tohsaka Rin until she introduced herself. (His memory wasn’t fuzzy, the name “Tohsaka Rin” had simply been worn away by time.)
At that moment, it all came rushing back like lightning.


“Then I’ll call you Rin. …Yes, it suits you well.”


Archer’s murmur at that time was thick with a heartfelt and madly passionate affection.

It's really helpful to memorize the source of information together with the information. Like a tag of sorts.

[Ideofago]

Huh. Makes sense.

[mami-kouga]

>Archer’s murmur at that time was thick with a heartfelt and madly passionate affection

Interesting word choice

[OnesFleetingGlory]

A fitting sentiment to someone who saved his life, and held onto her pendant for so long, to the point it manifested along with him after the summoning.

[Altima of the Gates]

I always found that Nasu trying to make Archer's memories of his past seem not there when in several interactions he makes comments about people he knew a little grating.
Like he was desperately trying to both have the mystique EMIYA has with the holes in his past, but that familiarity of who he is for sentimental value.

[warellis]

I always found that Nasu trying to make Archer's memories of his past seem not there when in several interactions he makes comments about people he knew a little grating.
Like he was desperately trying to both have the mystique EMIYA has with the holes in his past, but that familiarity of who he is for sentimental value.

It's kind of weird about EMIYA there, at least later on. Like the mention from Nasu in, I think, the HF 2 booklet where he pretty much says that EMIYA honestly doesn't give much of a shit about Sakura (essentially because he only cared about trying to fuck over Shirou and only drops it when he absolutely has to).

Except somehow he gives a shit about Illya, the little girl who is far more of a dangerous threat to Rin than practically anyone else, & Saber.

Saber I can understand. Illya, maybe. But what Nasu clarified about EMIYA & Sakura there honestly kind of soured me.

Gotta be rin and archer. The weird father daughter dynamic creeps me out every single time

It gets even creepier when he just kinda casually leaves her alone, sort of, with Shinji in UBW.

Unless he's just being a bro and wants to help Shinji get a taste of the both Tohsaka then.

[Altima of the Gates]

I think the problem is the inconsistencies. Like, its obvious that Archer is asking Shirou the question after you find out the truth about Sakura and are made to make your decision is him questioning himself.
Plus there was those mysterious parts where Shirou blacks out in HF and holds Sakura hand or cooks Ilya dinner and can't remember it. Its pretty obvious to me that those times Shirou blacks out are supposed to be when EMIYA takes over a bit. We know that Emiya has sway over him sometimes because he using Shirou's voice to say that the pendant is important, and he has to keep it with him forever, or how he gets that burst of excitement during Sparks Liner High to duel Saber where he and Shirou are of one mind in the pleasure of dueling Saber to the death.
But it seems like one of those things Nasu doesn't want to outwardly say to keep that air of mystery with the protagonists feelings and emotions. Because I notice every little bit though, you had little things like showing Archer shutting the door to leave Rin and Sakura alone to talk in UBW. There is also I believe a part in CCC where he tells Hakuno about being a good senpai. Then also that but in HF where Shirou was carrying Sakura back into the house after finding her from the doorstep, blacks out, and can't remember holding her hand and watching over her.
Since Nasu admits he finds it more fun for people to speculate than to say it outright, that could be why his only answer was "he's not Shirou", for the question about Archer caring for Sakura, which is total BS and I'd definitely follow up on that question, since nobody really follows up when he gives those cryptic bits in interviews much.

I dunno, since we're on the subject of toxicity, he makes a good character study for it, primarily because I think Nasu wanted to have a former heroic protagonist character with grayish morality, he wanted to make an Akio (from Utena) for Fate, and if you remember his commentary about Utena's relationship with Akio, imo it puts shape to how he was thinking to pen Archer and to an extent, Shinji. Knowing about his past influences (Utena, Eva, his relationships with his sisters whoo boy that is probably something) shines a light on a lot of things.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I do not remember Nasu saying EMIYA not giving much of a shit about Sakura in that Q&A, only that he didn't really remember her that well and took some time to put the pieces together. As for the Ilya thing, I assume his history played out like the Fate route in that case, where Ilya survived the war but died not long after.

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Also, I absolutely did not interpret Shirou's blackouts and memory gaps as Archer taking over, and there's no special indication that that was the case.

[Rafflesiac]

It's kind of weird about EMIYA there, at least later on. Like the mention from Nasu in, I think, the HF 2 booklet where he pretty much says that EMIYA honestly doesn't give much of a shit about Sakura (essentially because he only cared about trying to fuck over Shirou and only drops it when he absolutely has to).

Except somehow he gives a shit about Illya, the little girl who is far more of a dangerous threat to Rin than practically anyone else, & Saber.

Saber I can understand. Illya, maybe. But what Nasu clarified about EMIYA & Sakura there honestly kind of soured me.It gets even creepier when he just kinda casually leaves her alone, sort of, with Shinji in UBW.

Unless he's just being a bro and wants to help Shinji get a taste of the both Tohsaka then.

Little big sisters hit different.

Also Gil forced his hand.

I think the problem is the inconsistencies. Like, its obvious that Archer is asking Shirou the question after you find out the truth about Sakura and are made to make your decision is him questioning himself.
Plus there was those mysterious parts where Shirou blacks out in HF and holds Sakura hand or cooks Ilya dinner and can't remember it. Its pretty obvious to me that those times Shirou blacks out are supposed to be when EMIYA takes over a bit. We know that Emiya has sway over him sometimes because he using Shirou's voice to say that the pendant is important, and he has to keep it with him forever, or how he gets that burst of excitement during Sparks Liner High to duel Saber where he and Shirou are of one mind in the pleasure of dueling Saber to the death.
But it seems like one of those things Nasu doesn't want to outwardly say to keep that air of mystery with the protagonists feelings and emotions. Because I notice every little bit though, you had little things like showing Archer shutting the door to leave Rin and Sakura alone to talk in UBW. There is also I believe a part in CCC where he tells Hakuno about being a good senpai. Then also that but in HF where Shirou was carrying Sakura back into the house after finding her from the doorstep, blacks out, and can't remember holding her hand and watching over her.
Since Nasu admits he finds it more fun for people to speculate than to say it outright, that could be why his only answer was "he's not Shirou", for the question about Archer caring for Sakura, which is total BS and I'd definitely follow up on that question, since nobody really follows up when he gives those cryptic bits in interviews much.

I dunno, since we're on the subject of toxicity, he makes a good character study for it, primarily because I think Nasu wanted to have a former heroic protagonist character with grayish morality, he wanted to make an Akio (from Utena) for Fate, and if you remember his commentary about Utena's relationship with Akio, imo it puts shape to how he was thinking to pen Archer and to an extent, Shinji. Knowing about his past influences (Utena, Eva, his relationships with his sisters whoo boy that is probably something) shines a light on a lot of things.

I've never heard this "Archer controls Shirou" theory before. I can't say that I'm sold on it, especially given Shirou's increasing brain damage and memory loss in HF.

[Huralok]

I don’t know if you’re referring to these comments, warellis, but this is what I found on page 17 of the English translation of the HF 1 booklet concerning Archer and Sakura:

Q (Black Pawn): In the Fifth Holy Grail War that Archer was retracing, were the inner dealings of the Matou clan or Sakura’s circumstances known? If he had known, how did Sakura look through Archer’s eyes in this particular Holy Grail War?

N: That Archer only has “memories of Saber” when it concerns the Holy Grail War. When he was summoned, seeing his summoner before him, he started to acknowledge things around Rin as “his own things.” The inner dealings of the Matou clan is something he didn’t know before turning into a Servant, and Sakura’s current circumstances were something he deduced after being summoned for the Holy Grail War. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that he would assist Sakura. Archer is Archer. It’s not the guy.

By the way, Altima. My memory of the quote is fuzzy, but I believe Nasu said something about Archer in Extraverse and Archer in FSN being the same existence, but different people. IIRC, he made this comment because people complained about Archer being out of character in Extraverse. If my memory of the quote isn’t too far off from what Nasu actually said, and if I’m understanding his meaning correctly, I’m not sure how much of Extraverse Archer’s behavior and values can be used to explain or predict FSN Archer’s behavior and values.

As for Shirou’s blackouts and memory gaps in HF, I’m with SirGau and Rafflesiac. I don’t remember there being any evidence that Archer took over Shirou in those moments. With how Shirou’s mind falls apart in that route, I think it’s more reasonable to conclude his blackouts and memory gaps are related to that. All the same, if you’re still interested in talking about this topic, would you mind expanding on your points to help me better understand where you’re coming from?

[warellis]

Yeah, that HF 1 booklet quote was what I was thinking of. It definitely raised an eyebrow for me, but in retrospect it also kind of clarified and added info to the scene in HF where it's finally revealed Sakura was Rider's original Master (in the VN) and Archer there was honestly relatively gung ho about just killing Sakura right there.

So it's not that weird actually. I was just forgetting, and being a tad delusional, on how Archer had been sort of like in that route outside of how hebacts toward Rin or Sakura.

And honestly that "Archer controle Shirou" theory sounds pretty dumb. His brain is just breaking apart, no need to rationalize it beyond that.

[madarra]

I remember a segment from KnK i think knk 4where they mention the memory process and they/Nasu divided it up into 4 processes, Recording, Replaying, Indentifiying the memories as your own and another one i think...

All of Shirous HF problems are explained by his Record function not working, as a result there's nothing to replay. So he can still in the moment be Shirou and just never gain the memory. It also fits how Illya tells him not to try to remember cuz the memory just isnt there in the first place.

[warellis]

I remember a segment from KnK i think knk 4where they mention the memory process and they/Nasu divided it up into 4 processes, Recording, Replaying, Indentifiying the memories as your own and another one i think...

All of Shirous HF problems are explained by his Record function not working, as a result there's nothing to replay. So he can still in the moment be Shirou and just never gain the memory. It also fits how Illya tells him not to try to remember cuz the memory just isnt there in the first place.

Makes me wonder if he can remember again after being transferred to his new bodies in HF True End.

And what things he may have forgotten about. Be interesting to see any potential memory gaps.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

He probably doesn't remember most of the final act of HF, then, or if he does, it's not great.

[madarra]

By virtue that throughout the VN, scenes Shirou doesnt remember arent really shown, you can make a guess that he remembers everything we read.