[FGO JP Event] The Eight Dog Bowmen at the Southern Sea

[Lily Emilio]

Would it be nice if they touched the history and culture of other countries more often like Sesto wants? Sure, I also want to see more Spanish figures after seeing Don Quijote being properly represented, but I also care HOW they touch them, not just that they do, and if touching them means doing a half-assed insulting job about it, then no, I don't want that.

Exactly. Sure it would be nice if they touch on various different cultures, and I too couldn't help but feeling great when they added Trưng sisters, I talked to my friends the whole night that day and we were all so excited. So believe me when I say I understand the feeling of having my history being represented in a series that I like, even if it's just one character (Mr Twice doesn't count). But I'm not gonna go around demanding more, because to me it's unfair for the writers and an unhealthy expectation to have. You should expect good characters first and then representation. If they decide to add Lê Lợi and turns out it's just haha Vietnamese Seiba jokes kekw, then I would be pissed off.

[ResidentSeagull]

If I may throw my hat into the ring, I do agree with the consensus that TM have, since FGO, focused a lot more on Japanese servants. This in and of itself is not necessarily an issue, but the matter of fact is that it does leave many feeling that perhaps it does take away from the experience of learning about many lesser known stories throughout the world that TM have always loved to tackle. I myself have found myself learning and appreciating a lot more of the world's cultures and mythologies thanks to them. They have thus far shown interest in both world-renowned myths and lesser known urban legends.

However, one fact remains: TM always tackles point of interest in their own way. What do I mean by this? They looked at the Greek gods...and made them robots. They looked at Attila the Hun...and made them Altera. The guy who made the first computer? LOL MECHA. I feel like people forget that even if TM does tackle a underrepresented Servant idea, it is not guaranteed they will do it "respectfully", as some might put it. I mean sometimes it does turn out well, like Mandricardo. And then sometimes you get Dobrynya Nikitich. Or Wu Zetian. Not saying that the latter two are done out of malice, but they are indeed not done in a way that I would imagine the people of their cultural spheres would like to see them.

It is perhaps because of this that I and others see TM not really tackling cultures such as those of Africa a blessing in disguise. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure most people would love to see it done well, but there is a not-zero-percent chance that it comes off as the most racist, offensive shit imaginable, whether it's intentional or not. I wouldn't put it past them, to be blunt.
Again, I also feel that maybe Nasu and co. simply don't have any interest/knowledge in those mythologies, or even the confidence to tackle them. Maybe it is even possible that they are aware of the rule of "not punching down" on smaller cultures that many other authors in a similar situation employ.

I do agree that for a franchise many would describe as celebrating humanity it is a bit unfortunate to focus on a some cultures much more than others and that focusing simply on their own home turf would be a waste of potential in adapting the many wonderful stories the world over has to tell. Ultimately, however that is how they always operated, doing things their own way. I myself have made peace with that. Perhaps the only reason why OG F/SN didn't have more JP servants is because Nasu at the time wanted to catch the attention of an all-Japanese audience, and later on when they got a sizeable audience he decided to focus on ideas about his own culture. Mayhaps we will never know.

[Lily Emilio]

stuffs

I don't think you even understand any point I was saying in my first post so lol. Feel free to continue to misunderstand it, I've said enough.

[Kamera]

@Oz
Now that's an interesting question to think about.

Which is worse, an absolute lack of representation, where you're not even recognized to exist, or just bad representation or stereotyping in general?

Personally, as someone you would call a PoC, I think it's former. For the latter at the very least they recognize you as Other.

[Sesto]

I don't think you even understand any point I was saying in my first post so lol. Feel free to continue to misunderstand it, I've said enough.

I do understand what you're saying. I just think you're dumb for saying it.

[Lily Emilio]

If I may throw my hat into the ring, I do agree with the consensus that TM have, since FGO, focused a lot more on Japanese servants. This in and of itself is not necessarily an issue, but the matter of fact is that it does leave many feeling that perhaps it does take away from the experience of learning about many lesser known stories throughout the world that TM have always loved to tackle. I myself have found myself learning and appreciating a lot more of the world's cultures and mythologies thanks to them. They have thus far shown interest in both world-renowned myths and lesser known urban legends.

This is a fair point. But you can also say the same for the JP servants who most people from the Western sphere are clueless about, a lot of "who?" reactions from them when certain JP servants show up, just like how most of the non-JP servants would appear to JP audience. I didn't know much about like half of the JP servants they put in until they show up, those I had to search for lore. So it doesn't feel like "been there, done that" for me. And it didn't take away my liking for non-JP chars despite their much smaller amount when they show up. In fact, it's because they don't show up often as JP servants that they caught my attention and make them more memorable for me.

However, one fact remains: TM always tackles point of interest in their own way. What do I mean by this? They looked at the Greek gods...and made them robots. They looked at Attila the Hun...and made them Altera. The guy who made the first computer? LOL MECHA. I feel like people forget that even if TM does tackle a underrepresented Servant idea, it is not guaranteed they will do it "respectfully", as some might put it. I mean sometimes it does turn out well, like Mandricardo. And then sometimes you get Dobrynya Nikitich. Or Wu Zetian. Not saying that the latter two are done out of malice, but they are indeed not done in a way that I would imagine the people of their cultural spheres would like to see them.

It is perhaps because of this that I and others see TM not really tackling cultures such as those of Africa a blessing in disguise. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure most people would love to see it done well, but there is a not-zero-percent chance that it comes off as the most racist, offensive shit imaginable, whether it's intentional or not. I wouldn't put it past them, to be blunt.
Again, I also feel that maybe Nasu and co. simply don't have any interest/knowledge in those mythologies, or even the confidence to tackle them. Maybe it is even possible that they are aware of the rule of "not punching down" on smaller cultures that many other authors in a similar situation employ.

I do agree that for a franchise many would describe as celebrating humanity it is a bit unfortunate to focus on a some cultures much more than others and that focusing simply on their own home turf would be a waste of potential in adapting the many wonderful stories the world over has to tell. Ultimately, however that is how they always operated, doing things their own way. I myself have made peace with that. Perhaps the only reason why OG F/SN didn't have more JP servants is because Nasu at the time wanted to catch the attention of an all-Japanese audience, and later on when they got a sizeable audience he decided to focus on ideas about his own culture. Mayhaps we will never know.

I agree with all these points. Can't say it better myself.

[Kamera]

Honestly the topic of Equal Representation in Media is an issue that is already so stale that would bring out the worms inside people, but I would also like to highlight what I and Sesto have said about the nature of the Fate setting itself that really should necessitate and encourage diversity.

The setting of Type Moon multiverse is unique to any other Japanese media because there is perceived obligation or expectation for TM to include and explore cultural spheres that has rarely or never before been touched by any other Japanese media with the scale and influence it posses. From this unique expectation that the TM setting provides, it is only understandable that the Japanese creators would want to explore their own cultural sphere just as much as anyone else who would like to see a character from their country in TM.

[Lily Emilio]

I do understand what you're saying. I just think you're dumb for saying it.

Clearly you don't so stop pretending you are. I won't call you dumb, but I will say that you are building me up as some anti-diversity representation savage which is quite imaginative.

[Lily Emilio]

Honestly the topic of Equal Representation in Media is an issue that is already so stale that would bring out the worms inside people, but I would also like to highlight what I and Sesto have said about the nature of the Fate setting itself that really should necessitate and encourage diversity.

Wanting diversity in a setting about heroes of the world is perfectly fine. My country just recently had ONE representation and it felt great. Why would I go against exploring more heroes from more obscured cultures if it helps heroes from my history too? My point in the first place is that I don't care if the writers don't do that, it is their work and they can do w/e they want, as long as their product I enjoy. I then voiced my opinion about people wanting representation just for the sake of it, which, does happen a lot on social media that I've seen for a long time, and I don't like that. My post didn't even direct at anyone in particular but for some reason Sesto thinks I am onto them and putting my anti-woke agenda in here, ignoring the whole context of the post, which is just unfortunate. In fact, my other replies like to Oz and to Seagull are pretty much similar in ideas of Sesto. I want diversity, but not the forced kind of diversity where writers must find a way to add characters they have no interest in, like a lot of ppl on social media want.

[Sesto]

idk man, you're literally the one who brought up the word 'woke' first.

[Kamera]

@Lily
Yeah, that is perfectly valid, but then again, I think the core issue is the "lack of interest" itself, which in opinion presupposes a kind of chauvinism.

I have some faith in TM that it is not the case, and as such, I would assume that any character representation at all means that TM has shown considerable interest in them.

- - - Updated - - -

It's a bit of Copium, but I really hope that more diversity-minded writers like Meteo will become more active in TM

[Lily Emilio]

@Lily
Yeah, that is perfectly valid, but then again, I think the core issue is the "lack of interest" itself, which in opinion presupposes a kind of chauvinism.

I have some faith in TM that it is not the case, and as such, I would assume that any character representation at all means that TM has shown considerable interest in them.

- - - Updated - - -

It's a bit of Copium, but I really hope that more diversity-minded writers like Meteo will become more active in TM

Well the thing is, just like Oz said, I don't think it's lack of interest entirely. Even if, say, Nasu is interested in using Mwindo for example, he wouldn't half ass it and have to set up a bunch of lores related to Mwindo's region, in this case Africa. And since Mwindo is so tied to what would be classified as African magecraft, Nasu will then build the background lore of that, and then the character. It's like how they set up Philosophy Magecraft and the likes even b4 LB3 and Case Files to finally introduce the Chinese Xians, eventually leading to Taigong Wang. I do believe they have plans, just that they take a long time to finalize ideas and make implementations that they really vibe with, and sometimes other works take priority to that

[ItsaRandomUsername]

Karna too.

About Gilgamesh, I suppose if a Persian like Hassan-i Sabbāh is fine, he is fine too.

But the Epic of Gilgamesh is truly foundational to a lot of "Western" canon, as well as, more broadly, many myths and concepts from the region, to say nothing of the contacts that the Middle East has historically had with Eastern Europe and the Mediterranean. Those regions inclusion within the original "influence" of the limited Fuyuki system is sensible.

Karna's appearances are in the Moon Cell and F/Ap (and F/GO), and we know the F/Ap Greater Grail has been modded, but we don't know exactly to which extent, so that could that AND the potential appearances of Benkei and Kintoki.

You could even disregard the latter F/Ap argument and say that Indian stuff could be included anyway due to how Alexander's forces made direct contact with the region and formed a link between it and the West and the Hellenistic influences that would arise, but that is probably a case of thinking too much about it.

- - - Updated - - -

Why are ppl angry when a Japanese game about mythology and legend adds character from Japanese mythology and legend, is maybe one of the new world wonders...

Thinly-veiled xenophobia and self-centeredness.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean, I would rather get non-JP Servants over JP Servants, since I'm much more interested in Fate/'s take on non-JP cultural figures, and there're plenty of depictions of JP figures in other JP media, but I won't deign to mald over any that get in.

Esp. if it's a cute girl.

My best Sabers (except for Altera and Sigurd) are all Japanese, too, so that's pretty funny.

[Petrikow]

I feel like there is a certain level of cynicality to the addition of Japanese Servants, especially in forms of Events (that don't matter).
When it comes time to do Main Story stuff they usually focus on a broad array of people from different cultures (unless your name is Sakurai and you're writing Shimousa and Heian).
Basically, the Japanese-centered events are intended as a sort of "fanservice" for the Japanese fans. With perhaps the misplaced thought that this is what they want more so than all the foreign stuff they get fed in the Main Story.

[ItsaRandomUsername]

I feel like there is a certain level of cynicality to the addition of Japanese Servants, especially in forms of Events (that don't matter).
When it comes time to do Main Story stuff they usually focus on a broad array of people from different cultures (unless your name is Sakurai and you're writing Shimousa and Heian).
Basically, the Japanese-centered events are intended as a sort of "fanservice" for the Japanese fans. With perhaps the misplaced thought that this is what they want more so than all the foreign stuff they get fed in the Main Story.

This context is why I eventually developed a tendency towards sussing anyone who complains about JP "overrepresentation."

- - - Updated - - -

Of course, some people might just not be familiar with this context.

[Petrikow]

The problem is that Events far outnumber their Main Story counterpart meaning the game has gotten kind of flooded with Japanese stuff.
But like, to me the "Japanese Event shit" is so off my mind for most of the time that I partake in F/GO. So many of the Japanese Event Servants have not made a single 'actual' appearance in the Main Story, it's a little absurd.

[ItsaRandomUsername]

The Gudaguda Gaol...

[Comun]

Type-Moon wants to do original takes. That's the concept that permeates Servants both Eastern and Western. We know that Dantes is Komaeda because Nasu thought that old man Dantes was already done too much by other authors. Are the ideas that make the take original good? I'd say that's a 50:50. But I still think that letting go of this principle of originality is the worst thing that can happen to Fate/.

This is especially relevant for Japanese Servants because Type-Moon's location gives them natural as access to all sorts of normal takes on the characters they choose to portray, and as a result, Bald and Yagyuu aside, their versions of Japanese figures are all have pretty out there. A lot of them I don't like, but there's only 2 I can call not creative. Japanese Servants are a safe group I can trust Type-Moon to be insane about.

Ultimately, what I'm trying to say here about representation is that I don't care that much about where a Servant is from, but I don't want more Billy the Kids and Geronimos. They're a cowboy and a Native American, two categories exotic enough to count as original just for existing, so being a cowboy and a Native American ends up becoming their only character traits. I'll gladly take not being represented over being represented like that. Lampião is my ideal choice of Brazilian hero to be included in FGO, but if most of his profile sections are dedicated to explaining what cangaço is, I don't think it'll be worth it.

[ResidentSeagull]

Whatever the case may be, I am absolutely sure that the many fine Brazilian folk over here on BL will have plenty to say about Nasu's respect and representation of other cultures after LB7 rolls around.

[Kamera]

2 whole Main Story chapters and dozens of Event Chapters plus a number of token Japanese every other Chapters are excessive enough to be deemed a problematic overrepresetation tbh.

The real menace in Main Story chapters are the British though