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Thread: [FGO JP Event] Landslide Tea Ceremony Battle: Gudaguda Neo Yamataikoku ~ The man returned from hell

  1. #221
    هههههههههههههههههههه Kamera's Avatar
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    It would be less of a problem if Nasu could be less stingy regarding his own vision.

    For example, Nasu is holding all the monopoly for the Kojiki and Amaterasu lore because Tamamo's "lore arc" that involves those things are held hostage forever. Because of this, Keikenichi basically has to invent his own take from scratch regarding Himiko, Iyo and Japanese mythology as a whole, because he also has to avoid overlapping with Nasu's lore monopoly.

  2. #222
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Kirishima's Avatar
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    How shocking that the writer wants to write about the things he created.

    "But he's taking too long to deliver he owes us explanations" nah

  3. #223
    It's not like Nasu wouldn't have to make an exception to Keikenchi's works regardless, given Redline is clearly an entirely alternate timeline with time travel being used conventionally.

  4. #224
    世はまさにパンテオン Comun's Avatar
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    This isn't about Redline because the non-canon tag for Keikenchi Servants came in 2013, when Okita and Nobunaga were first presented in Koha-Ace EX. It's more of a matter of no one expecting Keikenchi to start making serious content 3 years later. All writers started doing their things taking Keikenchi's side series into consideration, which resulted in some overlap in Oo'oku and Requiem.

  5. #225
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle Delastogos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Base View Post
    It's not like Nasu wouldn't have to make an exception to Keikenchi's works regardless, given Redline is clearly an entirely alternate timeline with time travel being used conventionally.
    To me it seems like neither of them wants to touch something the other is working on unless they need to, or at least, that's how it looks like. So even Nasu telling him that he can go nuts with Amaterasu for GG, Keinkechi actually doing it is another matter.
    Last edited by Delastogos; September 17th, 2022 at 04:47 PM.

  6. #226
    後継者 Successor DrStein's Avatar
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    I can't describe how disappointed I am that we aren't getting Avenger Mommy Yodo.


    Also, I think it's silly that Sen no Rikyu isn't just Komahime (assuming the theory is true). I feel like she's a more interesting figure to begin with.

    Then again, I guess that's just the difference between a western history nerd and an average Japanese person.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirishima View Post
    How shocking that the writer wants to write about the things he created.

    "But he's taking too long to deliver he owes us explanations" nah
    No offense but i dont think its exactly wrong to be annoyed when it feels like things are being locked down for over a decade with no plot resolution in sight. Hell im not even sure nasu wants to do a resolution for a lot of lore instead of endless teasing,

    To use the ammy example, its been going on for so long that it's just fucking exhausting at this point, Unless nasu decides to go for a random curveball twist. People have probably speculated and guessed the entire thing for half a decade or more at this point.

    'Yes we get it nasu tamamo and daji are linked. Are you gonna actually explore it for once or you just gonna continue teasing till the company dissolves?'

  8. #228
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Blastedspider's Avatar
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    I think Nasu doesn't do really famous characters precisely because anime/manga/(japanese) video games industry is already saturated with them. Its hard to make a fresh and interesting take on someone like Nobunaga when there are dozens of characters based on him already.

  9. #229
    世はまさにパンテオン Comun's Avatar
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    To me Tunguska was pretty clear confirmation that Tamamo's story was concluded in EXTRA and an Amaterasu chapter is simply not in the plans at all.

  10. #230
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle Delastogos's Avatar
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    That certainly makes the lore lockdown more annoying to navigate if there simply isn't gonna be more add it unto it for quite a while.
    Last edited by Delastogos; September 17th, 2022 at 10:29 PM.

  11. #231
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Kirishima's Avatar
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    What is there to "conclude with Amaterasu" that is going to change Tamamo's story and character arc in any way? It's one thing to want to see it more for curiosity or whatever but it's definitely not necessary beyond what we already know about her, and it's definitely not a dangling plot thread that isn't resolved. We already know how Tamamo connects to Amaterasu and the implications it had on her arc.

    The way I see it, the connections are made as a way to explain how the world works and how these figures are connected, because those things need to be explained, not because Nasu is teasing it or promising to work on it, but because he specifically needs to give an explanation as to how Amaterasu, Daji and Tamamo are connected in this universe. You wanna see more Amaterasu content and Daji? Sure, that's fine, but it's definitely not a necessity for Tamamo's character to be concluded and it hasn't been dragged out, you just want to see it out of curiosity and that's fine, but Nasu isn't teasing it or promising anything, he just gave the details he needed to give for cohesion.

  12. #232
    If there's going to be any future explaination/lore on Amaterasu I figure it'll most likely be in Foxtail.

  13. #233
    هههههههههههههههههههه Kamera's Avatar
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    It's not about Tamamo at all lmao

    The "Amaterasu lore" being locked behind Nasu's mythical Extella sequel is also holding back all other thing related to the Kojiki and Japanese mythology as a whole. See the case with Guda Guda specifically, with Oryou and Watasumi, Himiko and her Amaterasu connection being basically censored, and now Iyo with Tsukuyomi.

  14. #234
    不明 fumei's Avatar
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    I don't actually think that's true whatsoever. We know full well Nasu can't say no to people, and the fact that Keikenchi can write about these things and just say "they're not canon" should be an argument for the complete opposite of what you guys are saying. If it's not canon, and this specifically because it overlaps with some stuff Nasu might want to do later, then what would he care about the non-canon version being, as you say, "censored" and having omitted parts. It seems way more plausible that those things aren't being touched upon because Keikenchi doesn't want to, either out of personal interest or because it doesn't actually have any bearing on the story.

    Which segues into how I think this is just another example of how this community has an obsession with lore over story. Acting like a character connection teaser, or even a worldbuilding device (like Kirishima mentioned), is some sort of "unresolved plot" that has been left hanging for YEARS (see: beast nero being "foreshadowed for years"), when in reality it's there to give flavor or internal logic to the universe created. Stuff like Amaterasu should be dealt with when it's relevant to a story being told, not just to fill out some wiki template.
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  15. #235
    other side of Red Garden AmADo VII's Avatar
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    this event made JP forum discussions very lively because there's many lore around involved characters.

    especially reading about how messed up older Hideyoshi was.

  16. #236
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle Castellan's Avatar
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    And just generally I think it's kind of boring to have all the answers spelled out or elaborated on. If anything, I like it a lot more when there is a bit of lingering mystery around a character or a part of the world that might or might not get elaborated on later.

    I don't think every question a setting has ever posed about itself or a particular character should have an answer essentially boils down to "just look on page x in the Great Big Book of Lore," that's tremendously boring.

  17. #237
    不明 fumei's Avatar
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    Story Summary - Section 7: Sword of the Beast

    --- Arrow 1 ---
    Rikyu asks Mitsunari if she did well during the call, to which Mitsunari says that mentioning Hideyori's name would force Chacha to react. This, in addition to having Yamanami appear on the call, is all just part of baiting Chaldea into the Singularity, as it would be difficult for them to just trust Rikyu. Thankfully for them, Yamanami is real good at selling out his friends. Yamanami just wonders if Akesato is safe and sound, and Mitsunari says that a hostage is useless if dead. As long as Yamanami follows orders, her life is guaranteed. Mitsunari turns to Rikyu, making sure she understands the same applies to her, and then leaves the room.

    Rikyu sighs at how Mitsunari is just as good at annoying people as he was in life. Yamanami asks why Rikyu serves Mitsunari. Rikyu, being a merchant, merely sides with the one who has the upper hand. She couldn't see herself selling out everyone else just for the sake of a single girl, like Yamanami. The profits wouldn't be balanced at all. Yamanami seems to understand it's Rikyu's doing that Akesato is held hostage to begin with, and Rikyu confirms that she was the one who found the girl wandering around here and handed her over to Mitsunari. It seems that this place, this Singularity, gathers souls that have unfinished business in life. As such, Akesato was most likely here looking for Yamanami. Much the same applies to Yamanami himself, to Mitsunari, and to Rikyu. They are ones who clinged to their lingering attachments from life; the losers of history. It is, for all intents and purposes, a landfill.

    Rikyu leaves to see to it that Chaldea doesn't die from lack of tea. Outside, it seems that someone had been eavesdropping. The scene cuts to dark and we see the sprite of the girl from before. She doesn't say anything, but she seems to have appeared in Gudao's dream. And without uttering any words, tears stream down her face. Gudao wakes up again, having apparently passed out due to lack of tea, and now having being given some more. You ask about the girl in the dream, but Nobu just says this isn't exactly the time to be dreaming about girls. Majin is still out cold, in a state that appears much like death, except since she's a Servant she would've disappeared if she was really dead. Iyo can't seem to sense any magical energy reaction from her either. She does, however, recognize that the large scar across the body is from Kukochihiko's sword of the beast. It's a sword originating from the beast god, a cursed tool from Kunakoku that sets the curse of the beast upon men. It causes them to lose their reasoning and turn into beasts. Nobu can't deal with this, imagine having someone named "[Alter Ego] Okita Souji Alter (doggie)"! Either way, since the sword is veiled in Mystery from the Age of Gods, not even Iyo can deal with it.

    You'll have to let Majin rest for now, while you figure out how to escape. Even if you managed to get out of here, you'd need tea to survive, and you're currently only being given the bare minimum. But then, Shusha lets out that if it's tea you need, she has lots in her bag. Turns out Okita had packed a lot of tea for Shusha before the battle "just in case". Nobu now realizes that Okita didn't desert them (although she could've totally still had a stomach ache since she's sick all the time), but she was planning for this all along. With this, you'll last for several days. Now you just need to contact Chaldea, so you ask Iyo if she can contact Himiko directly, like Himiko did for you earlier. Iyo says she doesn't have that kind of skill, and you urge her to just try her best because she'll never know unless she tries, and so she does, and...it doesn't work. Then again, if she had the same kind of power as Himiko, then Yamataikoku would've probably never fallen.

    Just then, Kuko appears, asking Iyo and Shusha to come with him. They follow him, so as to not cause any trouble for the rest of you. You consider whether you should just drag Majin's body along, but then you hear her voice, stating that "the adjustments are finally done", as she stands up, now in her first ascension outfit instead.

    --- Arrow 2 ---
    Mitsunari is ready to usher in Hideyori. Kuko says the priestess and the sacrifice have both been sent to the altar, so all that remains is to conclude the ritual. Mitsunari feels compelled to thank Yamanami for all he accomplished for them here. But she knows how he must feel. For most people, compassion trumps reason; no different from beasts. People might speak highly of loyalty and the likes, but in the end it's all about the self. Every person is a masked beast, waiting for the opportunity to betray the world. That's why Mitsunari is such a stickler for the law, to bind the beastly nature of men. Still, he doesn't need the others to agree with or see his reasoning; he knows what's right and what needs to be done. With that, they leave for the altar, to resurrect the ancestral beast of Kunakoku, and for the advent of the new lord of the Toyotomi clan.

    In the dungeon, Rikyu has brought Akesato some tea. The latter seems pretty chummy with Rikyu, all things considered. Seems that all she remembers is dying and then appearing here, but she does love the tea. Rikyu also seems to be this friendly in case there's ever a situation where they can help each other out later on. Akesato asks for some food, and Rikyu says she'll be back with some after she attends some other business. Akesato does, however, seem to realize Rikyu has some ulterior motive. In the end, all she can think about is Yamanami, and how he never came back to her after that day, perhaps because he died. Suddenly, Okita appears to have sneaked into the dungeon, introducing herself as a friend of Yamanami.

    Back in Chaldea, in the infirmary, Chacha has woken up again. She asks Mori if he thinks Mitsunari holds a grudge against her. Mori doesn't seem to think so, considering how Mitsunari took it upon himself to fight Ieyasu at Sekigahara. Surely it would have been the opposite if there was a grudge to be held. But she elaborates, saying it would be because while Mitsunari said he would fight for Toyotomi, Chacha refused to involve Hideyori in the conflict. Because of that, Mitsunari was left alone to fight. That battle was the beginning of the downfall of Toyotomi, and in the end, at Osaka Castle, Hideyori had to die because of Chacha. Mori seems to think that doesn't matter, it only matters what happens next. Chacha feels that she has a responsibility to fulfill here by going to Hideyori and Mitsunari, and with that, Mori tells her to be on her way, then. Hajime enters the room, declaring Gudao is in danger, and that the Shinsengumi will support Chacha in the operation.

    On the bridge, Da Vinci explains that they can only send three people as reinforcements. Chacha insists she has to go, and when asked about the wound, she says Mori took it easy on her so she's fine, but he interjects, saying he didn't go easy on her, it's just that mothers who act for their children are practically unstoppable. Hajime will join in as escort for Chacha, and the third Servant will be Himiko, considering it's Yamataikoku and now there's Iyo as well. For a bit, Mashu seems reluctant to send Chacha to take care of Gudao, but eventually concedes, wishing her luck with both Gudao and her son.

    To deal with the atmosphere of the Singularity, Da Vinci has engineered a sort of forcefield they can deploy. Now, they're ready for reishifting, except, as Hijikata points out, there's the matter of the coordinates...

    --- Arrow 3 ---
    We appear to get a flashback to the time just before Rikyu committing seppuku. An official is there to get them, but they only speaks about how unfair this is. The official, however, only says that the crimes of bribery for their own profit were clearly exposed by Mitsunari. But Rikyu won't have it. Screw Mitsunari, and screw Hideyoshi too if he's gonna act like this. What's wrong with a merchant making money for themselves? This world Hideyoshi is creating, a world without war, it will reduce the people's faith in him, and eventually they will come for him, they say. The official puts an end to their ranting, and they cut their belly clean across. (I should point out for the sake of theories here that Rikyu in this scene doesn't have a sprite.)

    The scene draws Rikyu's farewell poem on screen:
    "I raise the sword, this sword is mine, long in my possession, the time is come at last! Skyward I throw it up!"
    (original TL Suzuki Daisetsu)

    Amidst the pain of cutting one's own guts, and seeing them spill out, Rikyu appears to descend into madness. In the blood spilling out, Rikyu sees the corpses of a discarded monkey and a dog. "Fear and tremble the setting sun," they say. Monkeys and dogs alike should fear the sun setting over hell.
    The official deems Rikyu it an unseemly sight, and someone is ordered to cut Rikyu down once and for all.

    This was Tensho era, 19th year, 2nd month, 28th day (April 21st, 1591). Sen-no-Rikyu's seppuku.

    ---

    Back in the singularity, Mitsunari and co are nearing the place where the ancestral beast was sealed. Mitsunari explains to Iyo that they're to be sacrificed to awaken the ancient god, and that originally back in the day it would've just been Iyo, before Himiko intervened and ruined everything. Shusha is apparently added now because Rikyu had told Kukochihiko that the beast god prefers the "children of men". Rikyu says Shusha exhibits the best traits for this, and says Mitsunari would surely understand, but Mitsunaria merely says he doesn't know the requirements for this, and doesn't care as long as it fulfills their goal.

    Soon enough, Chaldea will walk into this trap, he says, and just as well, Chacha enters right then. Chacha asks for Hideyori, and Mitsunari says he'll be here soon enough, now that the last sacrifice is here. Chacha is embraced by darkness, unable to move. Mitsunari makes some quip about how Chacha's demeanor turned the people away at Osaka, but soon enough they realize something is wrong. Surely, Chacha didn't come here alone from Chaldea. Chacha says that Mitsunari never was that great of a fighter, and especially not when they couldn't notice this much. Hajime appears behind Mitsunari, and probably takes him hostage (hard to tell just from the sprites tbh). Kuko moves in to stop them, but Yamanami blocks his advance. Mitsunari asks Yamanami if he knows what this means, to which he simply responds that he does, and then calls out Okita from hiding. She has already evacuated Akesato to somewhere safe. Apparently even Hajime is here because of some directions from Yamanami (which I guess was subtly hinted at in the other scene, idk), and he is then quick to grab Shusha and get her to safety. Shusha thanks the shady old man, and Mitsunari tells Kuko to perform the ritual with just Iyo. But Himiko bursts in next, apologizing for being late. Since they apparently knew from Yamanami's words that this would be a setup, Hajime and Himiko shifted the coordinates a bit, and circled around the area first. Chacha was just bait, after all.

    Mitsunari asks Kuko and Rikyu to help, but Rikyu seems to have other plans. Such a pathetic display, truly. So confident in victory, Mitsunari went ahead with the plan, only to find himself surrounded by traitors again. It really is Sekigahara all over again. In the end, no one will follow a person like Mitsunari. Who would dare tear a country apart under someone of such mediocre skill? Mitsunari attempts to cut down Rikyu, but his sword passes through their body completely, shifting amidst black mud. While Rikyu quips about how Mitsunari can't even put a mere tea master down, Hajime suggests you get away while the enemies are fighting amongst themselves.

    But Yamanami and Okita are both stuck. It's not the darkness this time, but something heavier. Rikyu says she hopes you will all enjoy the tea ceremony and entertainment she has prepared for you.

    Sen no Rikyu:

    Yes, the execution of Toyotomi Hideyoshi's head of the Go-Bugyō---
    Jibu-no-sho, Ishida Mitsunari.
    I speak on behalf of all of Japan when I ask that you, Ishida Mitsunari, atone for your sins here and now.

    Mitsunari says he's hardly the one who Rikyu should be punishing. The order for seppuku was based on her own misdeeds, and issued by Hideyoshi himself. But Rikyu merely reiterates, as if Mitsunari didn't understand what was being said: she is speaking on behalf of all the people in the land. Once more, Mitsunari seems to think this is some maniacal representation from Rikyu's side, and Rikyu can't believe he's so dense.

    Sen no Rikyu:

    Are you really saying you did not notice as soon as you saw this face? I guess that's a given.
    But seeing it now, can you still make high claims about all your justice?

    The black mud engulfs Rikyu, and she turns into the girl we've seen two times past. Mitsunari wonders what's going on, but Rikyu asks if he really still doesn't recognize her face. But he does. He's definitely seen that face somewhere before. Finally, he remembers.

    Sen no Rikyu:

    By order of your Lord, the emperor, you had me executed, treated like nothing more than an animal---
    I am Komahime of the Dewa province.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcjon01 View Post
    Ugh cokesakto no no no
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    your ability to be wrong about literally everything you post is truly astounding. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, but you haven't been right once.
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    The gay pics were the most entertaining thing going on in this discussion.

  18. #238
    other side of Red Garden AmADo VII's Avatar
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    history repeats itself, isn't it sad Mitsunari?

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by fumei View Post
    I don't actually think that's true whatsoever. We know full well Nasu can't say no to people, and the fact that Keikenchi can write about these things and just say "they're not canon" should be an argument for the complete opposite of what you guys are saying. If it's not canon, and this specifically because it overlaps with some stuff Nasu might want to do later, then what would he care about the non-canon version being, as you say, "censored" and having omitted parts. It seems way more plausible that those things aren't being touched upon because Keikenchi doesn't want to, either out of personal interest or because it doesn't actually have any bearing on the story.

    Which segues into how I think this is just another example of how this community has an obsession with lore over story. Acting like a character connection teaser, or even a worldbuilding device (like Kirishima mentioned), is some sort of "unresolved plot" that has been left hanging for YEARS (see: beast nero being "foreshadowed for years"), when in reality it's there to give flavor or internal logic to the universe created. Stuff like Amaterasu should be dealt with when it's relevant to a story being told, not just to fill out some wiki template.
    I dont think anyone is saying stuff shouldnt be filled out when relevant, the problem is will that time ever come or will it be a eternal tease.

    And i think this is basic difference between seeing things, where is foreshadowing future plot points vs flavor appear? Clearly nasu is gonna reveal somethings hopefully like true magics. But beasts are a big thing as well as how it feels like stuff he keeps teasing for say tamamo on this topic would be relevant to her storylines from prev games

  20. #240
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One asterism42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmADo VII View Post
    history repeats itself, isn't it sad Mitsunari?
    If he didn't want people betraying him maybe he should stop taking hostages etc
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandstorm77 View Post
    He's just putting the bone of his sword into other people until it explodes and lets out parts of him inside them.
    Quote Originally Posted by AvengerEmiya View Post
    Genderswaps are terrible, but I think I and other people would hate them less if Fate didn't keep ignoring actual heroines throughout history and folklore. Like, why bother turning Francis Drake into a woman when Ching Shih and Grace O'Malley exist?
    Quote Originally Posted by Five_X View Post
    Fate Zero is just Fate Stay Night for people who think Shirou is too girly
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    I think Alex IV can eat Goku.

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