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Thread: For 2006 standard Fate 2006 was good

  1. #1

    For 2006 standard Fate 2006 was good

    Most of the people say now that Fate 2006 is a bad adaptation. But for 2006 Standard, it was not I think, It was great.
    First the visual, the animation was not that bad for that time, it was decent (the animation had really dropped when animation by computer came and until 2007/2008 for TV serie very few series had great animation, great art sometime, but animation it was rare and Fate 2006 had some great animation fight like Kuzuki vs Shirou, Rider vs Caster, Saber vs Kojiro and Saber vs Gilgamesh) and the serie was a precursor in the utilisation of lighting effect.

    If you read review of the serie from 2007/8 on my animelist by exemple, You can see that most of the review praise the graphic

    http://web.archive.org/web/200809080...ate/stay_night

    and actually with the Wayback machine, you can view that Fate 2006 was seen as one of the most popular serie of that time,

    (it stay in top 100 during 2 years and in top 50 during a full year) the rating of the serie back then was high (8,20 and it stay above 8 until Zero finished is airing) and stay that high until the release of the
    and Deen series were among the most popular back then (FSN, Fruit basket, Higurashi, Kenshin tsuioku-hen and Read or Die were big hit and Deen also worked on HxH 1999)

    http://web.archive.org/web/20070127065846/http://myanimelist.net/topanime.php


    And actually the Fate 2006 animation director was the main Ufotable animation director of these time(Ufotable and Deen share many staff especially their early staff, Demon slayers director and chara designer by exemple came from Deen)


    And it was not only the visual and the animation.


    The popular series from these time were really different and it really not sure that darker series like Fate Zero or heaven UBW or Heaven Fell would have been popular.

    It was the golden age of the big 3 of the shonen jump and the most popular anime series similar to FSN at this time were Shakugan no Shana, Negima and My-Hime (the comparison with these title was made back then and FSN was seen as superior), so the adaptation was made in the same spirit, more comedy, lovcom and shonen.

    And don't forget that at this time Sakura character was the less popular heroin and Heaven Feel the less favorite route

    For the fact it mix the routes, don't forget that it was pretty commun at this time for VN, Shuffle and the Key adaptation made the same thing.
    The serie were made for newcomer and needed to give them a complete experience even if they stop at the end of the serie.

    Killing 3 of the servant and Kuzuki offscreen would have been terrible for an anime only viewer, and without 2 two added episodes with Rin and Shirou fighting, Rin would have been a bland character too.


    Making 3 full adaptation was not possible at this time, FSN was not that popular, it was just an Eroge (Realta nua was not released yet) and only another eroge already had a 24 episode adaptation (Shuffle).

    and actually, 3 full adaptation would have been boring due to the big similarity between the begining of Fate and UBW. Even Ufotable have nearly skipped the prologue in Heaven Feel movies.


    Nasu Kinoko was ok about mixing the route and Fate 2006 have very great writers:


    Fumihiko Shimo and Jukki Hanada are the writers of Kyoani series who have great writing. Fumihiko Shimo have also already mixed storyline of VN before in Air adaptation (and after in Kanon and Clannad)

    another of the 4 writer of the serie is Mari Okada who is one of the most well know writer in anime community.

    I doubt that talentuous writers would fail to create what they wanted to tell.


    The anime was not made to give a full experience of the VN but a more complete experience of the fate Route working as a stand alone (like Tsukihime manga adaptation), to make it an enjoyable serie even when you don't read the VN.




    The main reason fans now dislike Fate 2006 is mainly because of the period.

    As I said, the rating of the serie dropped after the release of Zero, the main problem was I was not of Fate Zero tone (where UBW try to stay) and people stating with Zero or UBW feel it's not the same universe, it's not right. especially with the graphic being old now.(and even so, now FSN is still 7,19 on myanimelist while UBW is 8,13, the difference is not that high)

    For me it's pointless to says Fate 2006 is a worse adaptation than UBW, it's like saying that Burton Batman is worse than Nolan or Christopher Reeve Superman is worse than Henry Cavill or Starwars Prelogy is worse than original Prelogy.

    They are just product of their time made following the standard of their time.

    TypeMoon Fanbase back then was also less serious, back then, Meltyblood was the main topic for Tsukihime and it was mostly parody, Hollow Ataraxia was the last game released, the spin off was Take Moon and doujin manga by Crazy Colver Club and Sword Dancer were the hype, Type Moon fanbase was still nearly a Doujin fanbase. Even after the release of Zero novel, during the 2000, the focus on fate was still mainly in funny titles, the first true spinoff game was Tiger Collosseum, Prisma Ilya started as a parody of Sakura and Nanoha with no serious element. Even unlimited code had mini game like that

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKF8hKOHzPc

  2. #2
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    Well, the OST is amazing and we've got Tainaka Sachi as well.... really love her voice

  3. #3
    不死 Undead Maedhros's Avatar
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    It has perfect cheesy 2000s vibes, I'll give it that, and I think those vibes go quite well with Stay Night.

  4. #4
    祖 Ancestor TheSeaDragon's Avatar
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    Best OST

    Early 2000s feeling, tis closer to VN designs wise

    Gets te "comedy" side of VN better than UFO

    Still arguably best entry point , and it would be absolute bst entry point if it wasnt for te oter rutes spoiler bits, but i understand why it was done, no one would predict Fat wuld be such a hit and i guess ty wanted to give some characters a purpose

    Tis is not a diss on UFO adaptations, ty are superior in other fields as well, but just listing wat DEEN did good

  5. #5
    “─────ついて来れるか” Namelesss's Avatar
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    Watching Fate Deen Route after finishing the Fate VN I was literally mind blown how it made me feel like I was replaying the game and not only that they I think enhanced some scenes that are really great. I will die hard defend fate deen forever. I can't believe UFO UBW and HF didn't make me feel like I was reexperiencing the VN but I appreciate what they did and I personally liked UBW over HF because that shit made me cry.


    Your not a TYPE MOON fan if you don't even own a TM Merch or haven't fapped to a TM character.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Namelesss View Post
    I can't believe UFO UBW and HF didn't make me feel like I was reexperiencing the VN but I appreciate what they did and I personally liked UBW over HF because that shit made me cry.
    For me Ufotable adaptation are as much remake than adaptation. The tone, the directing and the writing is much more modern. It don't feel it's based on a 2004 game.

    And one of the reason I don't really like them is that. I am not a big fan of modern anime.
    I feel the same about Fruit basket 2019 vs 2001, the 2001 version works far better for me because the new version visual style and direction is really like actual anime and for me, it's less effective.

  7. #7
    The horror GarlandGreene's Avatar
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    This whole post comes off as some sort of weird historical revisionism about how Deen's adaptation(s) is some kind of underappreciated gem that was pretty good for its time. Action series like Eureka Seven, FMP The Second Raid, Black Lagoon, Death Note and Gurren Lagann to name a few, all came out within a year of Deen Stay Night's airing and completely blow it out of the water in almost every single aspect: direction, script, animation, tone and storyboarding. Sure none of them were "VN adaptations" but even as a VN adaptation, Deen's work was just mediocre if not, average at best even for its time. It had Kenji Kawai, Sachi Tainaka, Junichi Suwabe's engrish and a surprisingly good ending going for it and not much else.

    Pointing out that staff members from Kyoani and the likes Mari Okada were involved with it (which somehow automatically makes it so that it has good writing?) is also misleading since most of the heavy lifting was done by Takuya Sato and the director himself, Yuji Yamaguchi (RIP) with the others barely having any sort of creative input on the show.

    Also, comparing Deen's adaptation to Christopher Reeves' Superman movies just feels wrong on so many levels.


    Nostalgia sure is a hell of a drug.

  8. #8
    夜属 Nightkin Stoker's Avatar
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    The OST slapped and the anime itself was serviceable. I don't think it's fantastic by 2006 standards, there are anime that aired years before that blow it out of the water but it's certainly not the worst. Recently rewatched the tsuki anime with some friends and that was unwatchable sober. I was told to never suggest something to watch again.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by GarlandGreene View Post
    This whole post comes off as some sort of weird historical revisionism about how Deen's adaptation(s) is some kind of underappreciated gem that was pretty good for its time. Action series like Eureka Seven, FMP The Second Raid, Black Lagoon, Death Note and Gurren Lagann to name a few, all came out within a year of Deen Stay Night's airing and completely blow it out of the water in almost every single aspect: direction, script, animation, tone and storyboarding. Sure none of them were "VN adaptations" but even as a VN adaptation, Deen's work was just mediocre if not, average at best even for its time. It had Kenji Kawai, Sachi Tainaka, Junichi Suwabe's engrish and a surprisingly good ending going for it and not much else.

    Pointing out that staff members from Kyoani and the likes Mari Okada were involved with it (which somehow automatically makes it so that it has good writing?) is also misleading since most of the heavy lifting was done by Takuya Sato and the director himself, Yuji Yamaguchi (RIP) with the others barely having any sort of creative input on the show.

    Also, comparing Deen's adaptation to Christopher Reeves' Superman movies just feels wrong on so many levels.


    Nostalgia sure is a hell of a drug.
    your post is much more historical revisionism than mine. Have you even seen the serie back then or later? I doubt of it due to your age. Me I watched it back then and the hype was here. In 2006, anime hype were:

    Death Note
    Code Geass
    Haruhi
    Fate Stay night

    The visual back then were really good not outstanding, but really Good. It's good to remind that in 2006, the anime were in SD(the first TV anime released in HD was Code Geass) and we were watching then in CRT, so many flaw in the art were not visible. And like I said, the serie featured some great visual effect (lighting) who were pretty rare back then and were more noticable than some average drawing.
    The serie visuals was a solid 8.00 back then.

    I have posted link from that time, showing that in 2007, reception of the Deen serie was great (8,20 on myanimelist and anime news networks). Actually even now, even with all the Ufotable and VN fans who backlash it, it's still 7,3 on my animelist and anime news networks so even for now now it's still pretty good and not mediocre or average.

    Yeah, theere was better show, but you know what, some of them are seen now as better than Ufotable UBW (Death note, Gurren lagaan or black Lagoon by exemple)These show were among the best show of these time.The fact there was better show don't make the anime bad.

    Once against, Ufotable UBW was not the best show of 2014/2015 (Your lie in April, Parasite, Kuroko no Basket, Nanatsu no Taizai, Hunter x Hunter, Ping Pong or Jojo were seen as better by exemple) it don't make UBW a bad.

    but the reality is that in 2006, the serie was among the ten best show of the year and one of the most popular too (5th best sale of 2006), in japan on an around 500000 vote made in late 2006, it was listed in the top 100 series of alltime back then.

    https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2006-10-13/japan's-favorite-tv-anime




    It's not nostalgia, it's reality of these time. revisionisim is saying the serie was seen as average or mediocre back then (it even more revisionism that out of diehard fan, the serie is still seen as pretty good now)

    And for the writing team, it's clear you don't pay attention to the writer in a show. in anime quality of the writing really depend of independant episode staff. if some writer are better than other the quality of their episode will be better. And actually the style of Kyoani writing team (the wrote half of the episode of the show) is really noticable as the series does the same choice in the VN adaptation than Key adaptation by Kyoani and the emotional part seem pretty similar.
    Last edited by chevkraken; November 6th, 2022 at 01:54 PM.

  10. #10
    The horror GarlandGreene's Avatar
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    As a matter of fact, I did watch it back in 2008. I had a mostly lukewarm experience with the show and even as a teenager, there were things about the story that I was pretty iffy about back then. I then revisited it a couple of years ago and suffice to say, the whole thing aged as well as a year old milk for the most part. Even if we were to ignore my own opinions, there were plenty of folks who weren't impressed with what they saw from F/SN 2006 during that time with a lot of the criticism being thrown at the protagonist's portrayal, that being that of a stubborn white knight with negative IQ who brings everyone else down with him.

    Using popularity and point based ratings like MAL scores to defend the quality and worth of a show is such a flawed and stupid concept to me. You know what else was highly rated back in 2008? Elfen Lied, the same anime that featured a girl casually decapitating a dozen of guards in the very first episode and then include in the very next a scene of her pissing herself on the floor while acting like an innocent anime waifu to appeal to people with that creepy fetish among the viewers. Guess that's worth a 8.40 rating and the 6th most popular show on the website!

    An adaptation from one of the popular and recognizable visual novels of all time is bound to at least have some decent success sales wise, even if the quality is sub-par and that the studio mostly just phoned it in since there is already an established fanbase that the creators can lean on. That is why most seasonal shows are adaptations of established franchise than full on original creations since the latter is a lot more risky to make.


    Quote Originally Posted by chevkraken View Post
    The visual back then were really good not outstanding, but really Good.
    Spoiler:
    If this is what you consider to be "really good" then I don't want to know what your idea of bad is.

    Quote Originally Posted by chevkraken View Post
    And for the writing team, it's clear you don't pay attention to the writer in a show. in anime quality of the writing really depend of independant episode staff. if some writer are better than other the quality of their episode will be better.
    It's a case by case thing and varies from a series to another. Do you really think the Kyoani writers/Mari Okada were the one who came up with the idea of putting Sakura in a random dominatrix suit while inserting bits and pieces of UBW and HF into the Fate route? Obviously no, they were simply applying what the director/series composer and TM told them to include while adapting the script.

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    The Long-Forgotten Sight Rafflesiac's Avatar
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    On the one hand, the DEENime was hot garbage that I had to force myself to finish.

    On the other hand,
    NSFW
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    canon finish apo vol 3

  12. #12
    Elfen Lied, the same anime that featured a girl casually decapitating a dozen of guards in the very first episode and then include in the very next a scene of her pissing herself on the floor while acting like an innocent anime waifu to appeal to people with that creepy fetish among the viewers.
    And what is Heaven Feel? For me everything about Sakura is Heaven Feel is in the same vein that Elfen Lied.

    Guess that's worth a 8.40 rating and the 6th most popular show on the website!
    60th in 2008, not 6th. Big difference.

    And Yeah in mid 2000, Elfen Lied was popular in anime sphere because it was shocking and different. Every anime fan needed to at least one episode of the show. It's what I said 2006 standard were not the same than now.


    If this is what you consider to be "really good" then I don't want to know what your idea of bad is.
    Do you know that interbetween often look like that especially back then with no HD(black Lagoon or Code Geass had ton of shot like that)? your first shot is even taken from an action scene,

    https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/129076


    Do you really know something about animation

    even Fate Zero have some poor shot during interbetween (and often poor shot are hidden by big amount of blur)





    And you want great animation part?
    https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/129079

    https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/79155


    https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/129074



    the idea of putting Sakura in a random dominatrix
    I never understood why fans were against that when Caster put Saber in porn position and weeding robe in UBW... it's similar fetish.

    while inserting bits and pieces of UBW and HF into the Fate route
    As adaptation of Key from the same writers anime from Kyoani put piece of other route in the main heroine route? It was the best decision back then.


    An adaptation from one of the popular and recognizable visual novels of all time is bound to at least have some decent success sales wise
    Back then FSN was just a eroge(the anime was released before Realta nua), adaptation of way more more popular series had worst sales.

    FSN just sold 140000 back then

    Sakura wars anime: 5000 sales (Sakura wars games 500000 sales by episode)
    To Heart: 4800 sales
    Demonbane: 2600 sales
    Utawarerumono: 8000 sales
    Higurashi: 4700
    Persona 3: 3700 sales
    Tales of Eternia: 2200 sales

    FSN: 28000 sales
    Last edited by chevkraken; November 8th, 2022 at 07:37 PM.

  13. #13
    The horror GarlandGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chevkraken View Post
    And what is Heaven Feel? For me everything about Sakura is Heaven Feel is in the same vein that Elfen Lied.
    And what does that have to do with F/SN 2006 exactly? I am pretty sure the HF films weren't out until 2017.

    Quote Originally Posted by chevkraken View Post
    Elfen Lied was popular in anime sphere because it was shocking and different. Every anime fan needed to at least one episode of the show.
    It's not that every fan needed to watch the show, but mostly because it was many's "baby's first edgy gorefest". OVAs featuring a lot of unhinged gore have been a prevalent thing in the 80s/90s and popular series with true messed up stories also existed in 2008 with works like Eva and EoE being prime examples of it. But hey, I guess a lot of people's idea of "messed up" back then was to see a bunch of blood pinatas, a kid getting her limbs cut off and a couple of kids beating up a puppy to death in an unrealistic flashback sequence.

    Quote Originally Posted by chevkraken View Post
    Do you know that interbetween often look like that especially back then with no HD(black Lagoon or Code Geass had ton of shot like that)? your first shot is even taken from an action scene
    The thing is though, a lot of those shots in F/SN 2006 where the character models look off or ugly weren't just cherry picked in-betweens from an elaborate action sequence, they lingered around for way longer than they should have to the point where it was very blatant and obvious. What's even worse is that I thought the character designs they used are actually decent looking for the most part, it's the animation (or lack thereof) that brings the whole thing down with most action scenes using techniques such as speedlines and shaky cams to compensate for the lack of movement/motion. Also Black Lagoon did not suffer from these issues to this extent, not even close. I just re-watched the first season last month and it still holds up pretty damn well production wise.

    Quote Originally Posted by chevkraken View Post
    I never understood why fans were against that when Caster put Saber in porn position and weeding robe in UBW... it's similar fetish.
    It seems like most of what you are doing is deflecting the criticism and resorting to whataboutism to counter my statements. Having an equally as dumb setup doesn't make the whole S&M Sakura thing any less stupid.

    It's even more egregious considering the very beginning of that episode featured what I thought was a very well directed scene alternating between Medea's past, her encounter with Kuzuki and the present with her "Please wait!" line being used to simultaneously represent both. It's a short and (bitter)sweet sequence that does more for her character than the whole Atomic Gatorade flashback from ufoUBW while showing that there is more to Caster than her evil witch stereotype portrayal. If anything, this just demonstrates how uneven the writing and direction is throughout the anime.

    Quote Originally Posted by chevkraken View Post
    As adaptation of Key from the same writers anime from Kyoani put piece of other route in the main heroine route? It was the best decision back then.
    Again, I was not criticizing their decision to mix up the routes (They obviously did it because it was initially an one-off project and they did not think they would get an opportunity to animate the other branches), I was referring to the decision behind it being done by the higher ups (TM/direction/series composer) rather than the individual episodic writers.

    Quote Originally Posted by chevkraken View Post
    Back then FSN was just a eroge(the anime was released before Realta nua), adaptation of way more more popular series had worst sales.
    You are coming across as if eroge adaptations don't sell because of the nature of their source material. TV series like Air, Kanon, Da Capo are all adapted from eroge yet have all sold more than 10k DVDs. Meanwhile, there are plenty of original series (some with better production values and more love put into them than your average VN adaptation) that have never gone past the 2000 total sales unit mark during their lifetime with a big reason being that they could not find their audience and could not depend on an established fanbase to bail them out.

  14. #14
    Kanon 2006 was not released back then and 2002 made only 8000 sales.

    And nones of these titles were eroge anymore when they had their anime adaptation there was already an allage version of the games released, FSN, no. They even had home console version.


    But FSN 2006 was an eroge adaptation and it's a big différence.

    For black lagoon, sure it didn't suffer to this extend, but I want to point 2 thing about it.

    1. It had massive DVD retake (FSN no)
    2. It was among the most beautiful show of 2006. This is the problem I have with people who say Fate 2006 production was low. They always use the show with best production values of these time and the fact while some part were ugly, some other were great. The caster arc is often said as being the most ugly part of the serie, but it's also give the best animation shot.
    The average production values of 2006 show were far below fate 2006.

    For elfen lied, the OAV from 90 didn't feature shocking violence to innocent and teenage character and it was pretty old.
    It was the reason of the popularity to many peoples (the same type of people who like Heaven feel for me (hate both elfen lied and heaven feel)

  15. #15
    The horror GarlandGreene's Avatar
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    Kanon (2006) wasn't available in 2008? You got to work on your math there.

    Quote Originally Posted by chevkraken View Post
    It was among the most beautiful show of 2006. This is the problem I have with people who say Fate 2006 production was low. They always use the show with best production values of these time and the fact while some part were ugly, some other were great. The average production values of 2006 show were far below fate 2006.
    I wholeheartedly disagree. I can think of a dozen TV series that aired in 2006 with a more interesting and compelling visual presentation than DeenFate, including Ufotable's own Coyote Ragtime Show which gets completely ignored when discussing about the studio's resume nowadays. Like I said, even if we were to sugarcoat it, F/SN 2006 is an aggressively average looking show for its time.

    Quote Originally Posted by chevkraken View Post
    For elfen lied, the OAV from 90 didn't feature shocking violence to innocent and teenage character and it was pretty old.
    I'm not so sure about that...
    Spoiler:


    There is plenty more where that came from.

  16. #16
    HSTP 500 Internal S ervant  Error aldeayeah's Avatar
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    I watched it back in the day. It started strong and finished strong, but the second half combines plot excursions and plenty of QUALITY animation. Could have been much better.

    It was an OK show for its time, mostly thanks to the strength of the source material. It was all we had.

    Ah but the music was gorgeous.





    Kyoto Animation was setting the standard back in 2006 and compared to that DEEN felt mediocre.

    Better produced shows in 2005-2006: Samurai Champloo, Eureka Seven, Mushishi, Honey and Clover, Death Note, Ergo Proxy, Haruhi... FSN was middle of the pack.
    Last edited by aldeayeah; November 8th, 2022 at 02:44 AM.
    don't quote me on this

  17. #17
    The horror GarlandGreene's Avatar
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    That Kenji Kawai BGM deserved a better show. A shame that we will most likely never see him work on a TM related project again.

    The man was making one banger after another during that period:
    Spoiler:



  18. #18
    Kanon 2006 was not available when FSN 2006 was released so we can't use it as proof VN adaptation was sure to be a hit.


    Kyoto animation was not the standard it was (and it's still) the best animation studio.

    Saying the best studios are the standard is a problem.

    The standard quality was JC staff. And Jcstaff works felt flat compared to FSN

  19. #19
    All I know about this topic is that it should be in Anime/Manga/Merchandise/Doujin.

  20. #20
    Yeah, sorry, I make an errer when I posted it here.

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