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Thread: Grand Unified Theory: CHALDEA

  1. #941
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six OnesFleetingGlory's Avatar
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    By the way, Petri, I'd like to refer to this point from what was learned from Ordeal Call's prologue.
    2. Chaldea theorize that CHALDEAS and Earth have been swapped out, and that's the reason for why Earth was suddenly bleached on the last of December 2017. Basically, in CHALDEAS, where Subject:E is from, humanity was wiped out, and Earth was bleached. This was then swapped with PHH. The corridor in Traum was a route into the Area 51 of CHALDEAS. Incidentally this is a bit contradictory, since it begs the question as to why that kind of route would be needed if the texture of CHALDEAS has already swapped out PHH. Perhaps because it was a Singularity? Is this why the Rayshifting was all red and weird? Or perhaps this is simply Chaldea coming to the wrong conclusion.
    About the reason behind that route. Reading back the convo between Chaldea and Moriarty as they descended into Area 51, they've been going down for quite a fair bit. About ten levels of basement according to Moriarty. This got me thinking; is it possible that, there were portions of Earth's layer that weren't swapped after certain depth away from the surface? Thus necessitated a portal to connect the room in CHALDEAS with the outside world in PHH, even after the swap.
    Although, I'm not sure how deep is the surface of Earth that counts as Texture.
    Last edited by OnesFleetingGlory; February 14th, 2023 at 11:38 AM. Reason: 51, not 52



  2. #942
    HSTP 500 Internal S ervant  Error aldeayeah's Avatar
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    Maybe the 2117 bleaching was only meant to remove the discrepancies from 2017, so they could then be swapped around?

    disclaimer: i've never played fgo or watched the animes, but this thread is fascinating and reminds me of old BL, kudos Petri

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by OnesFleetingGlory View Post
    By the way, Petri, I'd like to refer to this point from what was learned from Ordeal Call's prologue.

    About the reason behind that route. Reading back the convo between Chaldea and Moriarty as they descended into Area 52, they've been going down for quite a fair bit. About ten levels of basement according to Moriarty. This got me thinking; is it possible that, there were portions of Earth's layer that weren't swapped after certain depth away from the surface? Thus necessitated a portal to connect the room in CHALDEAS with the outside world in PHH, even after the swap.
    Although, I'm not sure how deep is the surface of Earth that counts as Texture.
    it would be really hilarious if 10 stories were enough to make a basement into a literal Underworld
    Last edited by aldeayeah; February 14th, 2023 at 11:11 AM.
    don't quote me on this

  3. #943
    I was thinking that part of the plan was snatching all the advanced technology from CHALDEAS then giving it to modern humanity after the texture swap.

  4. #944
    On the Holy Night Noa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnesFleetingGlory View Post
    Although, I'm not sure how deep is the surface of Earth that counts as Texture.
    Merlin says in LB6 that the inner sea is something like 2700 km under the surface. I'm not sure if that means you have to get that low for the human texture to stop applying, or if there are others between.
    Also it's not as simple as just digging down since it's like a magical reality phase thing.

  5. #945
    死徒(下級)Lesser Dead Apostle TresserT's Avatar
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    It's already been confirmed that the bleaching didn't affect the underground- it's how anyone at all survived the bleaching in the first place. I don't remember which chapter, but it was stated in one of the Bluebook PoV scenes.

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    HSTP 500 Internal S ervant  Error aldeayeah's Avatar
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    From an astronomical POV, only the surface of the Earth matters.
    don't quote me on this

  7. #947
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Ratman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
    I just remembered about that bit in Back Alley Alliance where Gudako shows up as a random receptionist. That'd be pretty far in the future haha
    Ah, correction, it's in Tsuki no Sango manga, and she is not a receptionist. Unless it's supposed to be a Satsuki thing, but those plugsuits of the future though.

    Spoiler:

  8. #948
    The Wolf King Lobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petrikow View Post
    I have been thinking a bit about the talk of the technology and all that...

    1. all of Earth was bleached in 2117 EXCEPT for Area 51
    2. Area 51 is noted as being weirdly retro by Bluebook, something which we have confirmed later
    3. when Moriarty leads them to Area 51 in Traum, he notes that the place uses modern, present day technology, to which Gordolf asks "is that relevant?" and he answers "it is VERY relevant (大いにある)"
    4. Sion and (you) come to the conclusion that Area 51 couldn't, due to some unknown circumstance, upgrade their equipment

    Only things with modern (2117) technology got bleached on CHALDEAS' Earth.

    This might actually explain why there are remnants at all, and why Chaldea don't find them weird, because they're essentially things that would look normal to them from their 2017 perspective
    But that's all I could come up with, and I'm not entirely sure how that leads into anything else.
    There's something else I found weird, related to Area 51, Sion says that "something happened" and the secret research facility got closed down on 2001, yet in Chaldeas, it continued operating till 2017. When Da Vinci tries talking about what happened, Sion dismiss it and changes the subject very quickly, which I find suspicious.
    I think that in order to guess the mystery of the outdated technology we have to look at the whole timeline of Are 51:
    2001 - The facility in PHH run into some problem and got shut down
    2015 - The facility in Chaldeas kept operating normally when Olga is thrown in Chaldeas and taken there
    2017 - Last time the equipment in Chaldeas 51 could have been upgraded
    2117 - The Bleaching happens, Area 51 gets spared
    And there is another thing, the Cosmic Corridor, the crew traveled through it to inside Chaldeas right? But, if both textures were swapped, then why Area 51 didn't. Why Are 51 not only didn't got bleached but wasn't swapped with the rest of the texture and needed a corridor to connect it to the bleached texture? The only thing I could think of is that Chaldeas couldn't allow the technology of Area 51 to advance beyond the year 2017 maybe to help somehow with the Substitution magecraft?
    Also Bluebook and his bike, if he was traveling through the bleached texture all along, doesn't that mean that he traveled through Earth and not Chaldeas? That he got swapped with the rest of the texture and he made his journey on the same world Novum Chaldea was traveling through till he reached the Area 51, went through the corridor and whoever shot him turned him into the Traum Master? Then where in the world is the person that shot him right now?
    This is all I could think of, but this are more questions than answers unfortunately.

  9. #949
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors InsertNameHere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    There's something else I found weird, related to Area 51, Sion says that "something happened" and the secret research facility got closed down on 2001, yet in Chaldeas, it continued operating till 2017. When Da Vinci tries talking about what happened, Sion dismiss it and changes the subject very quickly, which I find suspicious.
    I think that in order to guess the mystery of the outdated technology we have to look at the whole timeline of Are 51:
    2001 - The facility in PHH run into some problem and got shut down
    2015 - The facility in Chaldeas kept operating normally when Olga is thrown in Chaldeas and taken there
    2017 - Last time the equipment in Chaldeas 51 could have been upgraded
    2117 - The Bleaching happens, Area 51 gets spared
    And there is another thing, the Cosmic Corridor, the crew traveled through it to inside Chaldeas right? But, if both textures were swapped, then why Area 51 didn't. Why Are 51 not only didn't got bleached but wasn't swapped with the rest of the texture and needed a corridor to connect it to the bleached texture? The only thing I could think of is that Chaldeas couldn't allow the technology of Area 51 to advance beyond the year 2017 maybe to help somehow with the Substitution magecraft?
    Also Bluebook and his bike, if he was traveling through the bleached texture all along, doesn't that mean that he traveled through Earth and not Chaldeas? That he got swapped with the rest of the texture and he made his journey on the same world Novum Chaldea was traveling through till he reached the Area 51, went through the corridor and whoever shot him turned him into the Traum Master? Then where in the world is the person that shot him right now?
    This is all I could think of, but this are more questions than answers unfortunately.
    He did say he could see the storm walls disappearing (from when we got rid of each Lostbelt), so he had to be on Earth rather than CHALDEAS. That said, Sion may have been lying or hiding something when she claimed the facility was shut down- if that's the case, we have to assume it was because Atlas was involved with it somehow. Given that "Paper Moon" and "R.A.N.I." are key words for Ordeal Call, there's a chance that the project has something to do with them- we'll need to wait and see.

    And the person who shot Bluebook remains a total unknown- of the people connected to the Alien World (and therefore the people who would have the biggest interest in keeping the truth a secret), Rasputin is the only one of the Apostles known to use firearms (although at the time Koyanskaya was working with them too), but if we assume he's shot shortly before Atlantis then it can't have been either of them because they were already in the Atlantic Lostbelt at the time (as were Douman and Muramasa). It might have been Young Moriarty, but he acted as if he had never been to Area 51 back in Traum. That's not nearly enough to disqualify him on its own, but given that he was in the process of dying when he was escorting us down there so there would be no point in his lying about it, either at that time or in his later message. And it couldn't have been U-Olga, who didn't have a body yet. That only leaves the Count, but if he is Dantes as most people believe there's no evidence that he ever left Chaldea (or Guda's head, at that matter) to do so.

    It's also possible that (as I think someone else already mentioned) it wasn't a matter of being unable to upgrade the facility so much as anticipating that it would only remain functional if it wasn't upgraded. How exactly anyone involved with Area 51 would know that in the first place is a mystery in its own right, given that (as far as we know) it's still a relatively mundane military base without any ties to the world of magecraft. Of course, if it turns out that whatever project going on in there had Marisbury involved with it then that may not be the case (even more so if we assume that he managed to swap places with his CHALDEAS self prior to his death since he'd then know exactly what had to be done to make things proceed on his terms).
    Last edited by InsertNameHere; February 15th, 2023 at 05:10 PM.

  10. #950
    BTW,if things with modern technology(2117) got bleached in the world of CHALDEAS,how did bluebook get to area 51 with his bike in only a few days (they did say that old stuff like bikes with normal fuel could still work,but the one he used was able to get there in a few days,which is really insane,along with it being modified with solar panels),along with the stuff of how the diary that chaldea found apparently was written with a laser pen?( I cant remember this specific plot point well).
    Then again,Fuijimaru was able to walk through most of north america in a few days, so maybe nasu doesnt really care about this kind of stuff.

  11. #951
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors InsertNameHere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkblueredmoon View Post
    BTW,if things with modern technology(2117) got bleached in the world of CHALDEAS,how did bluebook get to area 51 with his bike in only a few days (they did say that old stuff like bikes with normal fuel could still work,but the one he used was able to get there in a few days,which is really insane,along with it being modified with solar panels),along with the stuff of how the diary that chaldea found apparently was written with a laser pen?( I cant remember this specific plot point well).
    Then again,Fuijimaru was able to walk through most of north america in a few days, so maybe nasu doesnt really care about this kind of stuff.
    As I said, it's very likely that Sion was lying, or at least not telling the whole truth.

  12. #952
    祖 Ancestor VTKajin's Avatar
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    Small curiosity. Rhongobongo holds Earth's texture and the Reverse Side together, so I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned by anyone with regards to the swapping of textures. And I *assume* Chaldeas couldn't copy Rhongo (that's a big assumption, though), so if it has its own Reverse Side... wouldn't that be exposed inside Chaldeas? Or maybe Chaldeas doesn't have a Reverse Side. I don't know. Just had that question pop into my head when thinking about textures.

  13. #953
    Quote Originally Posted by VTKajin View Post
    Small curiosity. Rhongobongo holds Earth's texture and the Reverse Side together, so I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned by anyone with regards to the swapping of textures. And I *assume* Chaldeas couldn't copy Rhongo (that's a big assumption, though), so if it has its own Reverse Side... wouldn't that be exposed inside Chaldeas? Or maybe Chaldeas doesn't have a Reverse Side. I don't know. Just had that question pop into my head when thinking about textures.
    If Chaldeas is a nearly perfect copy of the Earth, then I don't see why it wouldn't have its own Rhongomyniad. Also, don't the Trees do basically the same thing? If Chaldeas doesn't have a Rhongo, it can probably still get one of those.

  14. #954
    祖 Ancestor VTKajin's Avatar
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    I think I've put together a semi-decent theory of what Marisbury's ultimate plan was/is, though my conclusion is entirely conjecture.

    Looking at the individual parts of Marisbury's grand scheme, there's CHALDEAS, the Fantasy Trees, the Alien Priestess, and the Animusphere chant.

    CHALDEAS we know is a copy of Earth's soul and can simulate the future. It's the Animusphere Mystic Code and uses the celestial sphere model to observe Earth from the void. Earth's texture is currently there, though we don't know what's happened to it since the swap occurred. Using the shape of the cosmos, it can precisely observe the universe.

    The Fantasy Trees are almost certainly Animusphere magecraft, and I suspect it's from the Age of Gods since they only appeared in Part 2. The environment of CHALDEAS may have been sufficient to reproduce that original magecraft, though it's impossible to say at the moment if they were the ultimate expression of Animusphere magecraft or if there's still yet a higher level Marisbury intended to reach. Having the shape of galaxies within allows them to anchor Lostbelt textures, and as we know from Daybit and Marisbury's conversation, the shape is enough to observe precisely. In addition to that, they are also "furthest ends", acting akin to Rhongomyniad and fastening the texture to Earth. If the shape is what allows them to anchor textures, then by association observing the shape = being a "furthest end."

    The Alien Priestess, let's just dive in and assume she's Olga's soul and (Arche)type-CHALDEAS. She is an observer, and Wodime calls her the void. Her association with observation is noted so often that it's clearly important. Being the brain of CHALDEAS makes her essentially one and the same, the true Alien God. The soul part, I think, is also important, but I'll get to that. But her (and CHALDEAS) being an observer would also make them "furthest ends" and allow them to anchor textures. Sure, Earth's texture is in CHALDEAS, but that can't be the end goal. Well, probably not.

    Lastly, the Animusphere chant. Shape is mentioned enough times that we don't need to elaborate on that. The shape is enough. But I'm going to try and decipher the last three, and arguably most important, lines in a way that'll point to my conclusion.

    Antrum
    The Celestial is the Hollow


    Unbirth
    The Hollow is the Void


    Anima, Animusphere
    In the Void, there is God


    It's very easy and probably not incorrect to associate this with CHALDEAS, because after all, CHALDEAS is observing Earth from the void, and CHALDEAS/U-chan is the Alien God. But I think there's more to it than that. "Hollow" is a critical keyword here and has been discussed quite a bit. Celestial bodies are hollow (Antrum). But, and this is not just English, it's the Hollow. Antrum is a noun meaning "cavity" or "hollow", also "tomb". The Celestial doesn't need much explaining, but I'd like to point out how Arc's profile refers to Altrouge as a being that "forms the celestial." We briefly talked about the Celestial Egg and the Planet's records in this thread a while back, and a key attribute of an Archetype is having access to those records. Cutting to the chase, I believe the Hollow is the Inner Sea of the Planet.

    The Planet (Gaia) is the Inner Sea

    The Inner Sea is the Void

    In the Void, there is God

    The next part is perhaps a little bit of a head-scratcher, not least because of "Unbirth." Unbirth means something that couldn't be born. At least prior to vore becoming a thing. But I want to refer back to Wodime calling the Alien Priestess the void in the shape of an observer. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say Unbirth is referring to her. She's not really alive. From a different angle though, if you don't assume "the Void" is referring to space or the universe, there are a couple of other interpretations. One takes Kara no Kyoukai and the simple answer is the Root. Not really rocket science to say Marisbury wants to reach the Root, but for now I'm going to make the assumption that's not his only goal. The other takes Imaginary Number Space. The word used for Void here is 虚空, which, perhaps intentionally, could be seen as an abbreviation of 虚数空間, i.e., Imaginary Number Space. Quoting Comun here on translation specifics:

    Sakura's 虚, found in my translations as Imaginary and in FGO NA as Void. Officially defined as "what can possibly exist but doesn't". It's demonstrated through Imaginary Numbers Magecraft (hence the choice of name), which is Sakura using shadows as space pockets for storing things (Grail mud) and doing portal cuts. Then FGO uses this Imaginary Space to cross walls between worlds by having the Shadow Boarder dive into it (board the shadows, if you will) and surface on the other side. Imaginary Scramble also presents the insides of Imaginary Space as an empty space where multiple possibilities co-exist. Check this event for more detailed infodumps.
    Void is possibility. Fantasy. The Inner Sea of the Planet is often referred to by its fantastical and conceptual nature. So a few possibilities, and arguably all interrelated. But keeping this in mind, let's just leave "the Void" as-is.

    Those who reach the Root could become god because knowledge is power, etc., etc. But again, putting that aside for now. If the Inner Sea is the Void, then God is in the Inner Sea. Certainly, the Age of Gods is alive and well in the Inner Sea. But more than that, the 最果ての塔 CE states Gaia's soul is located in the Inner Sea. Given the importance of records, it wouldn't be a stretch to equate the soul of Gaia with the Celestial Egg, i.e., the Starlog. Quoting Petrikow on the Retroflow scene:

    This is a conceptual universe: これは概念の宇宙。
    Domains which the lifeforms on Earth do not recall; 地球の生命は記憶していない領域。
    Laws which are yet out of reach from humanity's observations; 人類の観測では手の届かない法則。
    The cosmic hollow reaching into the furthest depths; infinite yet most minimal of all. 無限にして最小の、最奥に至るソラの空洞。


    There's a lot more to this quote, which I'm sure Petrikow could elaborate on if he feels it relevant, but this is what Shiki sees when he reaches Luminary Arc's heart. I'm going to assume that the Celestial Egg is primarily Earth-related and not the entire universe, because it's located in the Inner Sea and Gaia is not the Root. But it's Root...like? If the Root is all the records of the universe, the Celestial Egg is all the records of Earth. But anyway. The Celestial Egg is described as residing in a cosmic hollow, using the same
    空洞 in the Animusphere chant. You can easily interpret it as saying:

    Gaia is the Inner Sea

    The Inner Sea is a Conceptual Universe

    Within the Conceptual Universe is the Celestial Egg

    Potential connections between Aoko's Retrogalaxy and the Animusphere plot notwithstanding (I'm not qualified to touch on that lol), that leaves one more element: Anima Animusphere. Animus is a word meaning many things, including "spirit", "life energy", "mind", "soul", whatever. It's not really that important, you can sum it up as "that which animates." Anima, however, is a derived word which very specifically means the spirit or soul, i.e., "that which is animated." Etymology lesson aside, Anima Animusphere means "the soul of Animusphere." The soul of Olga Marie Animusphere. Olga Marie Earthimilate Animusphere.

    Tin foil hat on, the ultimate goal (again, no clue what's happening in CHALDEAS right now, so no point trying to figure that out) is to make the Alien Priestess one with the Celestial Egg, i.e., the soul of the Planet. As an observer with the shape of the cosmos, combined with all the records of Earth, she could anchor, in theory, the texture of any Human Order imaginable to the universe.

    Or I could be entirely wrong and CHALDEAS really is the endgame.

  15. #955
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One Dartz's Avatar
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    Celestial Egg in Tsukihime is also described and presented as a universal phenomenon, not only restricted to Earth. The scene shows the observation from the planet (the planet's memories) extend way into outer space and probably cover the entire universe. Since Roa refers to Arc as "the canopy that covers the
    Void
    Cosmos
    ", and his goal in Remake is to "have the cosmos unveiled". What this all means is that he wants to remove this Earth-born texture that's currently covering the universe and acting as a filter to see what lies beyond that, that being Eternity. Since this Celestial Egg is the proof of Eternity.
    The narration also states it's "the source of everything yet also the cemetery of stars where all will in the end return". So the Celestial Egg is not merely planetary in it's scope.


    I think you're onto something though. Roa did said "so this is what makes the Celestial" when Arc used Event Storage/Marble Phantasm on him at the climax and both of those abilities are abilities associated with the inner sea of the planet.


    Maybe Nasu will elaborate on this concept more once he releases the next part of Tsuki. Since I think it's likely related.
    The priest was waiting for the arrival of the princess, who was only an enemy of all of them.
    For the priest, the golden princess was the one and only main heroine.
    Everyone else was unworthy of his respect, no matter how strong they were.

    Tsukihime 2 Prelude III

  16. #956
    祖 Ancestor VTKajin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartz View Post
    Celestial Egg in Tsukihime is also described and presented as a universal phenomenon, not only restricted to Earth. The scene shows the observation from the planet (the planet's memories) extend way into outer space and probably cover the entire universe. Since Roa refers to Arc as "the canopy that covers the
    Void
    Cosmos
    ", and his goal in Remake is to "have the cosmos unveiled". What this all means is that he wants to remove this Earth-born texture that's currently covering the universe and acting as a filter to see what lies beyond that, that being Eternity. Since this Celestial Egg is the proof of Eternity.
    The narration also states it's "the source of everything yet also the cemetery of stars where all will in the end return". So the Celestial Egg is not merely planetary in it's scope.


    I think you're onto something though. Roa did said "so this is what makes the Celestial" when Arc used Event Storage/Marble Phantasm on him at the climax and both of those abilities are abilities associated with the inner sea of the planet.


    Maybe Nasu will elaborate on this concept more once he releases the next part of Tsuki. Since I think it's likely related.
    I wanted to avoid that messiness because it equates the Starlog with the Root while also being specifically tied to Earth. It begs questions about all the other celestial bodies in the universe. One possible interpretation is that the Starlog has the planet's memories from before it even was a planet, stardust 13.8 billion years old.

    EDIT: That being said, if the Alien Priestess's goal is the Root rather than Gaia then the universe is most definitely fucked.
    Last edited by VTKajin; February 28th, 2023 at 04:45 PM.

  17. #957
    初代 The Initial Petrikow's Avatar
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    Not sure how much I vibe with using Prisma Illya lore.

    If "Starlog" shows up anywhere else I'll consider it.

  18. #958
    アルテミット・ワン Ultimate One Dartz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTKajin View Post
    I wanted to avoid that messiness because it equates the Starlog with the Root while also being specifically tied to Earth. It begs questions about all the other celestial bodies in the universe. One possible interpretation is that the Starlog has the planet's memories from before it even was a planet, stardust 13.8 billion years old.

    EDIT: That being said, if the Alien Priestess's goal is the Root rather than Gaia then the universe is most definitely fucked.
    I don't agree with mixing up Prillya lore with new Tsukihime Remake lore that has yet to be explained. Especially when Hiroyama stated his work follows different rules to the main Fate works.
    The priest was waiting for the arrival of the princess, who was only an enemy of all of them.
    For the priest, the golden princess was the one and only main heroine.
    Everyone else was unworthy of his respect, no matter how strong they were.

    Tsukihime 2 Prelude III

  19. #959
    U-Olga Marie voter TomPen94's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dartz View Post
    I don't agree with mixing up Prillya lore with new Tsukihime Remake lore that has yet to be explained. Especially when Hiroyama stated his work follows different rules to the main Fate works.
    We're in the thread of a theory where Neco Arc lore is part of putting it together I think nothing's off limits here.
    Subscribe and boost my numbers.



  20. #960
    祖 Ancestor VTKajin's Avatar
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    That's fair, I'm just using it as a shorthand. But even without Prillya lore, the Celestial Egg is still the planet's memories and should be within the Inner Sea according to TsukiRe. The question is how connected the planet is to the universe and the Root as a whole. The part about Arc being a canopy that covers the sky is also interesting. Going by Archetype-Earth's and Shiki's vague lines, the Inner Sea (and I guess by extension Arc?) is the canopy that covers ソラ, which normally would translate to sky but the katakana are probably intentional, so I'll go with void/cosmos as well (the fact that the inner sea covering the sky would be physically impossible notwithstanding if meant literally). Arc also says that the stars can't be reached with the power of man because of said canopy. Given the Animusphere philosophy and any potential connections Marisbury might have with Roa... their intentions very well could be the same.

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