Grand Unified Theory: CHALDEA

[VTKajin]

I wanted to gather a few textual references to 天体, 空洞, 虚空 for some better context, because the terms are used so often that I think the chant is quite literal.

天体 goes without saying, it's used constantly. The only interesting uses are the Celestial Egg, which we discussed exhaustively, and I guess Astromancy. Celestial bodies. Not much room for interpretation. Meteors are 天体 I guess.

By far the most interesting usage of 空洞 is from Oberon.

ライ・ライク・ヴォーティガーン。
妖精國で発生したオベロンの本当の姿にして宝具。
ブリテンを滅ぼす『空洞の虫』、魔竜ヴォーティガーンに変貌し、その巨大なミキサーのような口 と食道（空洞 ）で、世界ごと対象を飲みこみ、墜落させる。
相手を殺すものではなく、一切の光のない奈落に落とす『異界への道』である。

Oberon is at first referred to as 奈落の虫 (Insect of the Abyss), but the description of his Noble Phantasm in his profile also calls him Insect of the Hollow. His esophagus is an infinite hollow with no entrance or exit. His profile additionally says that it's a path to another realm the drops things into the abyss. Perhaps the Hollow can be equated with the Abyss (though it should be noted that 奈落 originally means Naraka and came to mean a bottomless pit by association). Oberon is also associated with the Dream World, and the name of his NP is The Eye of the Dream Falling to the Beyond. 奈落 doesn't get a lot of textual references in TM works, so I'm not really sure what to make of it. It's used to describe Tartarus and also a few times when Gilgamesh uses Enuma Elish inside Ionian Hetairoi. The latter abyss is a return to nothingness, which matches Oberon's role as a doomsday device that returns everything to nothing. Though who's to say if they're alike.

妖精國ブリテンで語られる滅びの伝承……全て無に帰す奈落の虫……から生まれた、世界を呪う終 末装置。

Most other textual references are to caves or the underground hollow, which has a specific term. The only usage of hollow earth that stands out to me is when Holmes is suggesting Olympus and Spirit Tomb Albion support the Hollow Earth Theory, which directly points to the Inner Sea in this case. Another reference is one that's commonly talked about, which is Daybit saying "すべてが空洞になる前に、この惑星を破壊する". You can translate it as "before everything is hollowed out," but for the sake of consistency I'd like to interpret it as "before everything becomes the Hollow."

So basically you have one use equating the Hollow with the Abyss (whatever that means) and another with the Inner Sea. And of course there’s the cosmic Hollow with the conceptual universe, but we already went into detail on that.

虚空 is pretty common and varied. It's used to refer to Chaos: it exists in a spatial rift referred to as a void, and Musashi additionally uses ソラ in that context; as a god Chaos is said to represent the Void, defined as 空にあいた穴 (a hole opened in 空).

UOM mentions 虚空の星 when she descends in Olympus, referring to CHALDEAS (so it's interchangeably an Alien World and a Void World). The Alien God also says that with the invasion, ソラ will be closed off, which is referring to the cosmos.

Foreigners are called 虚空からの降臨者 (Descenders from the Void). The God of the Abyss (an actual abyss, not the Oberon kind) in Hokusai's interlude is referred to as 虚空の存在 (an existence of the Void). It should be noted that 虚 on its own refers to the Imaginary Element of Void which Sakura specializes in. It's also referred to as 虚数 because it involves direct access to Imaginary Number Space (虚数空間). So it's easy to see how you can have a literal interpretation of space and a more nuanced interpretation of "the Void" that relates to Imaginary Number Space. We know Outer Gods come from the outside, from the realm of fiction (not to say they're not "real" but that's a distinction without meaning at this point in the story). Imaginary Number Space has countless textual references, but the important bit is that it's in the Inner Sea and is a dimension of possibility that can't be observed normally.

Abby says something very interesting in her interlude, which is

セカイ

宇宙

と

ソラ

虚空

の狭間, the space between the Universe (World) and the Void (Cosmos). The distinction between the universe, which unambiguously means the universe or outer space, and the Void is unique here and the only example I know of. I'm not really sure what to make of it, nor the space between them (I guess she's referring to the realm of the Outer Gods?), but I'd keep this in mind.

In LB7 it's pretty much always referring to outer space in the context of aliens like Kukulkan and ORT, nothing special there. Then there's the canopy stuff with Arc, which is probably referring to the stars since Arc says human ability can't "reach for/grasp the stars."

So as we can see, 虚空 doesn't mean one thing, and it's entirely dependent on the context. And perhaps they're all actually the same thing. The one attribute they do all share is that they're Outside the Domain. Be it INS or outer space, they're realms beyond the Human Order. But another thing I'd like to point out is that we have a 虚空 inside the Planet and a 虚空 outside the Planet. Foreigners can come from the outside or the inside. The stars and cosmos Arc is referring to could very well be inside. But maybe the inside and outside are the same?

There's also CHALDEAS, which is a Planet that exists in the Void, but we already know it's the Alien God.

[Petrikow]

Abby says something very interesting in her interlude, which is

セカイ

宇宙

と

ソラ

虚空

の狭間, the space between the Universe (World) and the Void (Cosmos). The distinction between the universe, which unambiguously means the universe or outer space, and the Void is unique here and the only example I know of. I'm not really sure what to make of it, nor the space between them (I guess she's referring to the realm of the Outer Gods?), but I'd keep this in mind.

I'll try and make this brief, but 宇宙 consistently refers to humanity's "universe of perception", while ソラ refers to things that aren't that. And then there's Abby, in between both of them, in INS.

宇宙 ("the universe") is defined by humanity's view on reality. Some people take this to mean that all of reality in the Nasuverse is relative, but it's not that simple. There are after all several observers who interact with one another. It is what we usually call the human texture, in a sense. Rhongo holds it in place on Earth, so the texture beneath is stable (the Inner Sea, which is part of this category, would cause all kinds of messes otherwise).
ソラ ("the cosmos" or "the void") is the realm of those who aren't from Earth. In essence, a place closer to eternity. A great variety of things hail from here. The Machine Gods (eventually incorporated into our universe), ORT, Crimson Moon, all other Ultimate Ones, Malla (eventually incorporated into our universe), etc.
宙の外 ("the outside of the cosmos") is what Abby calls the in-between. This is the realm of imaginary numbers and outer gods; of infinite possibilities, yet infinite nothingness. Everything in this place is, by nature, imaginary; fictional. As this place doesn't really exist, it also isn't bound by time, unlike the other two. But being bound by time is what makes something exists, so it's not that great. As we've learned a lot by now, it is possible to interact with this place.

[VTKajin]

Based Petrikow as always.

If INS is the boundary between the World and ソラ, then that might shine light on the “canopy that covers ソラ” (I think I’ll start using “Heavens” as a translation since that encompasses the sky and celestial). INS being in the Inner Sea, it would make sense for the Inner Sea to be said canopy as Shiki saw. I don’t know how it physically works, but one could conclude the heavens are both outside and inside the planet at the same time.

Cosmos > Earth (though Voyager would extend humanity’s texture further than the planet’s surface) > Inner Sea > INS > …?

[Dartz]

INS can't be restricted to the Inner Sea, I think that's a TM wiki thing. Since that would imply the Moon Cell is inside the Earth and there are characters like Passionlip who have pocket realms inside their body made up of INS, think about what that implies...
宇宙 is a derivative of ソラ or a portion of it in the context of the human universe of observation. We know from the Celestial Conception scene that Arc/Earth's observation extends way beyond the human universe and this is literally stated in that scene since the universe Shiki observed is stated to carry laws beyond human observation.
Also, when Arc used Event Storage/Marble Phantasm on Roa in the climax the narration states she created a universe (宇宙) with different laws such that the Order itself was different, which in this context means the laws in her particular space where outside the realm of Roa/humanity. Which matches up with the Celestial Conception scene.
Based on what we know is likely the Canopy is a type of Earth texture similar to the human texture, but much greater in scope, extending far beyond the solar system. Scope of Observation = size of your texture, basically.


Given all that the canopy in question only covering the INS or a portion of the planet inside itself makes little sense, and why would Roa have some grand plan "to unveil the cosmos" if that were the case? It would have no impact anywhere aside from inside the planet.

[VTKajin]

INS can't be restricted to the Inner Sea, I think that's a TM wiki thing. Since that would imply the Moon Cell is inside the Earth and there are characters like Passionlip who have pocket realms inside their body made up of INS, think about what that implies...
宇宙 is a derivative of ソラ or a portion of it in the context of the human universe of observation. We know from the Celestial Conception scene that Arc/Earth's observation extends way beyond the human universe and this is literally stated in that scene since the universe Shiki observed is stated to carry laws beyond human observation.
Also, when Arc used Event Storage/Marble Phantasm on Roa in the climax the narration states she created a universe (宇宙) with different laws such that the Order itself was different, which in this context means the laws in her particular space where outside the realm of Roa/humanity. Which matches up with the Celestial Conception scene.
Based on what we know is likely the Canopy is a type of Earth texture similar to the human texture, but much greater in scope, extending far beyond the solar system. Scope of Observation = size of your texture, basically.


Given all that the canopy in question only covering the INS or a portion of the planet inside itself makes little sense, and why would Roa have some grand plan "to unveil the cosmos" if that were the case? It would have no impact anywhere aside from inside the planet.

Well, as I've said, I believe the Inner Sea of the Planet is connected to the cosmos as a whole. Shiki equates the canopy with the Inner Sea, so we're already operating with the inside of the planet covering the "outside" (and I don't think the line is ambiguous in any way). The Celestial Egg (which, again, based on terminology should be Earth's egg, and very possibly its soul because 天体のたまご vs 天体のたま; I also want to add that 星の墓所 can mean both "cemetery of the stars" as well as "cemetery of the planet") has observations/records stretching back to the origin, and Shiki can see

ソラ

虚空

の空洞, the Hollow of the Cosmos beyond human perception, a conceptual universe. A World of Concepts sounds quite alike to INS. 　

I'm also not saying INS is restricted to the Inner Sea. After all, if the Celestial is Hollow is Void, this should apply to the Moon as well. Though as the Moon Cell is an observer and simulator of Earth's history, it would extend the 宇宙 to the Moon and thereby be anchored to the Reverse Side. That being said, I can't find any text in FGO commenting on a physical location or connection, simply that it is the thin boundary between the observable and the unobservable.

However, maybe thinking about physicality is missing the point. Inside, outside, beneath, above, it might all be irrelevant. At least as far as I'm concerned. If human perception extends to the limits of the observable, it should all be anchored to the Inner Sea. And if the Inner Sea is the canopy that covers it from the unobservable, then it's not merely "inner" or within the planet since it's a texture as well as a physical location. I guess that's where セかいの裏側, the Reverse Side of the World, is probably the ideal terminology.

So if Roa and Marisbury's understanding of things is shared in any way, God/Eternity/「 」 (funny how Roa uses all of these terms) is in the unobservable domain (Void), which is filtered by the Reverse Side's texture (Hollow), originating from the Planet (Celestial). I actually would like to dive into Hollow more since there's three unique uses of it, one being the Inner Sea, another being the Abyss/nothingness, and the last being the conceptual universe where Shiki sees the beginnings (which might be the same as the previous Hollow), but I'm exhausted lol.

EDIT: Nevermind, found it in Babylonia lol.

世界の裏側、生命のいない虚数世界に。
It was to the Reverse Side of the World -- to a World of Imaginary Numbers, devoid of life.

Tiamat's profile also says she was exiled to the Reverse Side while in-game dialogue says she was inside INS.

One way to look at it could be

セかい

宇宙

>

ソラを覆う天蓋

空洞 <> 虚数空間

<

ソラ

虚空

. The Celestial encompasses all of this, or at least can observe all of this.

[Dartz]

Well, as I've said, I believe the Inner Sea of the Planet is connected to the cosmos as a whole. Shiki equates the canopy with the Inner Sea, so we're already operating with the inside of the planet covering the "outside" (and I don't think the line is ambiguous in any way). The Celestial Egg (which, again, based on terminology should be Earth's egg, and very possibly its soul because 天体のたまご vs 天体のたま) has observations/records stretching back to the origin, and Shiki can see

ソラ

虚空

の空洞, the Hollow of the Cosmos beyond human perception, a conceptual universe. A World of Concepts sounds quite alike to INS.

If you're referring to the scene where Shiki looks into Vlov's IB, then no, he isn't equating the Canopy to the inner sea, but rather the Moon:

星の内海、ソラを覆う天蓋は謳う。
In the inner sea of the planet, the dome covering the sky sings.
祖に呪いあれ。
Cursed be the Ancestors.
人の世に呪いあれ。
Cursed be the world of man.
いまだ原理は定着せず。この星の<礎|いしずえ>はあまりに脆い。
The Principle has yet to take hold. This star's foundation is so brittle.

There are also other instances in the game outside the Inner Sea where the Moon is referred to as the canopy. What I take this to mean is that the aspect of Arc representing CM is in itself the canopy, which is why this canopy doesn't exist in Fate worlds, where Arc probably doesn't exist and CM isn't active.
This canopy is strictly a Tsukihime concept I believe, at least for the time being.

I'm also not saying INS is restricted to the Inner Sea. After all, if the Celestial is Hollow is Void, this should apply to the Moon as well. Though as the Moon Cell is an observer and simulator of Earth's history, it would extend the 宇宙 to the Moon and thereby be anchored to the Reverse Side. That being said, I can't find any text in FGO commenting on a physical location or connection, simply that it is the thin boundary between the observable and the unobservable.

We know what he was seeing there was the planet's memories, as it was stated in the scene. It was just effectively alien to humans. Perhaps everything humans have yet to cover with their collective observation falls into the category of INS or "fictional". I believe that's what Shiki is probably referring to.

However, maybe thinking about physicality is missing the point. Inside, outside, beneath, above, it might all be irrelevant. At least as far as I'm concerned. If human perception extends to the limits of the observable, it should all be anchored to the Inner Sea. And if the Inner Sea is the canopy that covers it from the unobservable, then it's not merely "inner" or within the planet since it's a texture as well as a physical location. I guess that's where セかいの裏側, the Reverse Side of the World, is probably the ideal terminology.

Yeah, I think INS isn't restricted to the Inner Sea, but rather it exists anywhere where there are regions that cannot be observed. The Inner Sea is a realm of INS, but there are INS spaces in other places as well.
Worth noting in LB7 is stated to inner sea is a Reality Marble of the planet, referred to as a "mind place". And the planet has several of them. With Avalon being only one.

So if Roa and Marisbury's understanding of things is shared in any way, God/Eternity/「 」 (funny how Roa uses all of these terms) is in the unobservable domain (Void), which is filtered by the Reverse Side's texture (Hollow), originating from the Planet (Celestial). I actually would like to dive into Hollow more since there's three unique uses of it, one being the Inner Sea, another being the Abyss/nothingness, and the last being the conceptual universe where Shiki sees the beginnings (which might be the same as the previous Hollow), but I'm exhausted lol.

I think Marisbury's goal is to extend the texture of humanity over the universe, that's why he needed the shape of the cosmos from Daybit. It could be that since he is not a natural phenomenon and neither is his magecraft what he is doing is at odds with reality itself. But it's difficult to say at this point.

[VTKajin]

星の内海、ソラを覆う天蓋は謳う。
In the inner sea of the planet, the dome covering the sky sings.
祖に呪いあれ。
Cursed be the Ancestors.
人の世に呪いあれ。
Cursed be the world of man.
いまだ原理は定着せず。この星の<礎|いしずえ>はあまりに脆い。
The Principle has yet to take hold. This star's foundation is so brittle.

Small correction here, but 星の内海、ソラを覆う天蓋 can't be translated as "in the inner sea of the planet" because there's no locative or genitive particle. In sentences like this, it's an appositive, which is to say, "the inner sea of the planet, the canopy covering the heavens sings." Arc uses the phrase "星を覆う天蓋を" in FGO during her NP, calling it "the canopy that covers the stars/planet". The different situations in Tsukihime vs. Fate might boil down to the inability of Idea Blood Principles to manifest, so it's hard to say what we're dealing with in FGO.

Of the sparse mentions of the general phrase, two (MBAA and FGO) are Arc referring to herself one is Shiki equating it to the Inner Sea, and another is Roa mentioning it alongside Crimson Moon (not equating it, he also brings up Pantheon/Arc and the Celestial Egg alongside Crimson Moon as well, so it's probably all parts of his big mysterious plan).

There's also the phrase "宙を塞ぐ天蓋", which is "the canopy that closes off the heavens". It's used to refer to the Moon, like you said. Not sure if/how they're related, since it's different verb than all the uses relating to Arc. If there are more mentions of any of the aforementioned phrases, I don't know of them, so feel free to add on.

I think Marisbury's goal is to extend the texture of humanity over the universe, that's why he needed the shape of the cosmos from Daybit. It could be that since he is not a natural phenomenon and neither is his magecraft what he is doing is at odds with reality itself. But it's difficult to say at this point.

I'm inclined to agree. I think back to how Voyager is a "furthest ends", but as far as we know, the alien textures of the solar system still exist. There's the observable solar system and the unobservable solar system, and while humanity's texture is large, it's not necessarily overwriting or replacing ソラ. So while the canopy/dome/firmament may not exist in Fate, a similar mechanism should. Roa wanted to reveal ソラ to find Eternity, but Marisbury might want to colonize ソラ.

And the Alien Priestess can do that by Earthimilating. Thank you for coming to my TED talk. (I'm jumping off the deep end with this part of the theory but I really do think her existence as an observer is the crux of the whole plan, given all the properties of CHALDEAS and the Fantasy Trees)

[Dartz]

Small correction here, but 星の内海、ソラを覆う天蓋 can't be translated as "in the inner sea of the planet" because there's no locative or genitive particle. In sentences like this, it's an appositive, which is to say, "the inner sea of the planet, the canopy covering the heavens sings." Arc uses the phrase "星を覆う天蓋を" in FGO during her NP, calling it "the canopy that covers the stars/planet". The different situations in Tsukihime vs. Fate might boil down to the inability of Idea Blood Principles to manifest, so it's hard to say what we're dealing with in FGO.

In the NP in question the camera also pans out towards the Moon. And well Arc isn't really canon to FGO. Her descriptions make it clear it's Tsukihime Arc traveling to FGO verse so I wouldn't dwell on it too much imo.

Of the sparse mentions of the general phrase, two (MBAA and FGO) are Arc referring to herself one is Shiki equating it to the Inner Sea, and another is Roa mentioning it alongside Crimson Moon (not equating it, he also brings up Pantheon/Arc and the Celestial Egg alongside Crimson Moon as well, so it's probably all parts of his big mysterious plan).

Here is Shiki equating the moon itself to the canopy in the prologue:

だから　空を見あげることにした。
―――<

ソラ

宙

>を<塞ぐ天蓋
目にあたたかい緋色が混ざってくる。
眼球の奥に染みこんでくる。

Here is another instance of the canopy being mentioned, the flashback where Arc is in her princess dress. This is in the inner sea as well:

　言葉を知らず、<生命|いのち>を知らず、時間を知らず。
　頭上には空を塞ぐ天蓋。
　花々が咲き誇る庭園で、彼女の姿だけが、鮮明だった。
　その姿を、男は、美しいと感じた。

I'm inclined to agree. I think back to how Voyager is a "furthest ends", but as far as we know, the alien textures of the solar system still exist. There's the observable solar system and the unobservable solar system, and while humanity's texture is large, it's not necessarily overwriting or replacing ソラ. So while the canopy/dome/firmament may not exist in Fate, a similar mechanism should. Roa wanted to reveal ソラ to find Eternity, but Marisbury might want to colonize ソラ.

Well humans pretty much colonized the solar system. It was stated if the system of parallel worlds were to continue unchecked the solar system including the sun would collapse which does already imply humanity sort of took over the solar system. There is a system in place to prevent this however, with the quantum-time lock the solar system can keep functioning for millions of years.
As of MBBAN it's implied Archetype Earth also has control over this quantum time-lock system. So it's possible the whole system works differently in Tsukihime worlds and humanity doesn't have purview over it. But the system itself is stated to be above Human Order by AE since it governs it.
Bear in mind the concept of parallel worlds isn't something that comes naturally to planets, as it was stated Zelretch discovering the Second Magic extended not just humanity's lifespan but the planet's as well. So that alone already makes Earth a special exception among planets.

[VTKajin]

<p>
Thanks for the additional references. Just want to point out that all uses of ソラ/星を覆う天蓋 refer to Archetype: Earth and associated terms, while all uses of 宙を塞ぐ天蓋 refer to the moon or the moonlit sky more specifically. I&#39;m not sure what to make of that, but the distinction is likely intentional and clear. Arc covers/conceals while Crimson Moon blocks/obstructs. They very well could be an Earth-borne and Moon-borne Texture, respectively. But we also know way too little about Crimson Moon, unfortunately, so who knows.</p>
<p>
Also the parallel worlds thing is so confusing lol. They must&#39;ve existed prior to the Second Magic given some of the divergence points we know of, but it&#39;s implied Zelretch&#39;s discovery spawned them. Or perhaps his role as an observer changed the course of parallel worlds? Who knows. Also, the Human Order definitely extends across the solar system, but the native textures of celestial bodies should still exist in their own phase. Maybe. The only examples I can think of is Gilles teasing an invasion by Martian Outer Gods and also the fact that humans can&#39;t see Crimson Moon&#39;s kingdom on the moon despite physically going there.</p>
<p>
EDIT: What in the holy HTML</p>

[TamamoRoute]

The discussion these last few pages inspired me, so I'd like to share my two cents: Animusphere magecraft is based on the geocentric model, that meaning, Earth as the center of the Universe. The Animusphere Chant is clearly divided in two parts, I'll call them "ingredients" (Stars, Cosmos, Gods, Animus) and "processes" (Antrum, Unverse, Anima Animusphere).

First: Stars, the shape of the stars. The physical CHALDEAS hardware, to accomodate the simulation of a planet.

Second: Cosmos, the shape of space. What Marisbury needed Daybit for, a model of the observable Universe.

Third: Gods, the shape of god. The soul of the planet, connected to the root (God) or at least a replica of it. What was obtained through the experiments on Seraphix.

Fourth: Animus, the shape of self. An administrator to control the simulation, a brain, an observer, an avatar of this new planet. The Alien Priestess, created from something originally belonging to Olga (might be her soul, might be something else), which eliminated her qualifications as a Master (that's why CHALDEAS can summon the apostles, the Priestess holds the Master qualificatons).

Those are the ingredients. Once everything was ready the

plan

recipe

was in motion. With Marisbury alive or dead, didn't matter. It had already started. The steps of this recipe were/are:

Antrum - Celestial bodies are hollow: The bleaching of planet CHALDEAS and the subsequent switch of its texture with Earth's. Now Planet Earth is hollow, a cave ready to be filled. This step also involved getting rid of the Olga that fell into CHALDEAS. The presence of two beings being recognized as "system administrator" by the system could thwart the plan. Because while the priestess wanted to bleach that world, Olga wanted to actually manage it, make it better. The priestess then built the fantasy. Using Bluebook and the time tunnel, another "alien from outside" was created. The texture of the bleached planet CHALDEAS was fixed to the Earth, together with this fake "alien" asking for rescue. Hearing the call of its "comrade", Olga was guided to what binds what's from CHALDEAS to Earth, the Fantasy Trees, and through the works of the apostles, a vessel that could contain an "administrator of the planet" was guaranteed. With that obstacle out of the way, the plan could continue.

Unverse - Hollowness is void: Yes, unverse, not unbirth. The fantasy trees hold a galaxy within, but not as an energy source or anything like that. It's there only to look like a galaxy, a galaxy on top of the Earth. The "unversion". The trees, taking energy and growing from both the land and cosmic rays, once recognized by the CHALDEAS system as "galaxies in the surface", would fix the entire texture of the observable universe onto the now hollow Earth, possible because "hollowness" is as the "void", outer space. Because CHALDEAS is modeled as the center of the Universe, observed from the void. With CHALDEAS as the center, the void must surround it. This is the next step the story is currently heading to, and what Daybit was trying to stop by having ORT destroy everything.

Anima, Animusphere - In the void, lies god​: God is CHALDEAS. The old Earth is now the void, and CHALDEAS is at the center of it. The geocentric model. The sin all other lifeforms in the Universe would hate humanity for, but that for the Human Order is considered the best outcome. The entire Universe subjugated to Earth. Existing only for the sake of Earth and humanity. Infinite energy. No more pruning. Eternal prosperity. Truly infinite possibilities. A future always guaranteed, guarded by the self of this new world that is the Priestess. The avatar of CHALDEAS, which "earthimilated" the Earth's original texture, born from the lone Animusphere girl.

Anima, Animusphere

The soul of the celestial sphere which moves the future.

[VTKajin]

I'm glad you agree on the beginning and the end. Earthimilate4life.

Regarding CHALDEAS, since it's known as 人理保障天球 and 星, it obviously qualifies as 天体. U-chan also calls it 虚空の星, a Planet of the Void, by the time she descends. Given that there is an Alien God, one can surmise that
空洞 also applies. That is to say, CHALDEAS has already completed the Animusphere chant. This is reinforced by the the implication of Daybit saying "全てが空洞になる前", which means that as of right now, the Hollow stage of the plan has not yet occurred. Earth is not yet Hollow. Daybit thought it better that the planet be destroyed then made Hollow. And that is my segue to talking more about 空洞.

But first, while the last few pages have discussed 虚空 at length, I just want to mention a few bits I found off-hand for curiosity's sake. There's a bit in CCC that is pretty much what Petrikow was talking about, where Rin explains 宇宙 from the POV of human observation. In the context of the Moon, the surface is part of the Universe of Obersvation, an 宇宙 that follows a three-dimensional time axis (past, present, future). She equates 月の裏側, the Reverse Side of the Moon, with the World of Imaginary Numbers. She calls this part of 記録宇宙, the Universe of Record, which has a four-dimensional time axis. That is to say, time doesn't exist in the same manner that humans would be able to perceive it. We know from FGO text that time doesn't quite flow in INS. Not sure if 記録宇宙 can be equated with

ソラ

虚空

, but they're probably connected concepts.

I forgot Skadi gives a great explanation on INS in Nautilus, but it's lengthy so-

--- Moon Runes ---

スカサハ＝スカディ	始原より二元の世界であった北欧神話わ　れ　らの世界観と異なり、 異教では『原初の混沌』をしばしば定義している。
スカサハ＝スカディ	天地、寒暖、善悪、一切が混然一体こんぜんいったいとなった、 故に万能の可能性を含む、世界の太母、原初の混沌……
スカサハ＝スカディ	虚数空間とは、それと似て非なる万能性を有する空間だ。
スカサハ＝スカディ	『混ざっているゆえ』万能たる原初の混沌とは異なり、 『観測不能ゆえ』万能たり得る、と考える。
スカサハ＝スカディ	即ち、我らが世界の裏側、観測不能域。 既存の物理法則では垣間見ることすらできぬ場所。
スカサハ＝スカディ	故に、あらゆる可能性がそこに仮定できる、というわけだ。
Choices	あれ、観測不能……？ そのわりに、外、見えてるけど……
スカサハ＝スカディ	ふふ。良いところに気付いた。 この虹の渦は実のところ、真に見えているわけではない。
スカサハ＝スカディ	ここを虚数、我々を実数とすれば、 実数と虚数は通常、決して交わらぬ。
スカサハ＝スカディ	我らは虚数潜航技術により、例外的にこうして 虚数と向き合っておるが、決定的な断絶は続いておる。
スカサハ＝スカディ	すなわち、我ら個々の感覚が、虚数を誤って観測し、 この虹めいた映像を錯覚させているにすぎぬ。
スカサハ＝スカディ	実は、私とおまえとでは、虹の見え方も違うのだ。
スカサハ＝スカディ	仮に虚数の住人などがいたとすれば、 かれらもまた我らや我らの世界をまともに観測できまい。
スカサハ＝スカディ	この断絶があるかぎり、実数と虚数は相互不可侵、 傷つけあうことはないのだが
Choices	ちゃんと見えてるわけじゃないんだ…… ところで先生、アラートは大丈夫？
スカサハ＝スカディ	うん、我が生徒よ、きちんと聞くがよい。
スカサハ＝スカディ	神せんせいの説明によれば、 我らは観測不能域の何物も見ること触れること能あたわぬ。
スカサハ＝スカディ	ゆえに何物も障害物たり得ぬし、障害物の検知もあり得ぬ。 船長は、そう仰せなのだぞ？

I'll just grab a TL from Comun for ease:

--- Comun Runes ---

Osakabehime: Ugh, I don't know how this Real Numbers Imaginary Numbers stuff works. This magecraft talk is too meta for me.

Scathach-Skadi: Unlike my Norse mythology, which viewed the world as born dualistic, other religions often had a defined concept of primordial chaos. Heaven and earth, warm and cold, good and evil, all united harmoniously. Therefore the primordial chaos is a grandmother of the world, which includes all possibilities... The Imaginary Number Space is a space that contains as many possibilities as it. I believe the primordial chaos contains all possibilities for it has everything mixed in it, while Imaginary Numbers contain all possibilities for they are unobservable. Thus, this is the inner side of our world, unobservable territory. A place not even detectable by the currently existing laws of physics. Meaning all possibilities can be hypothesized there.

Fujimaru: Huh, unobservable...? / You keep saying that, but I can see outside the window...

Scathach-Skadi: Huhu. You noticed an important point. You are not truly seeing this spiraling rainbow. If you are take this place as imaginary numbers and us as real numbers, you must know that those two kinds of numbers cannot be counted on the same operation. Our Imaginary Dive technology enables us to exceptionally face Imaginary Numbers, but the decisive divide between us persists. Thus, we misobserve the Imaginary Numbers. This rainbow-like imagery is merely an illusion project by each of us' own senses. In fact, you and I are seeing the rainbow differently. If the Imaginary Numbers had any dwellers, they should not be able to properly observe our world either. As long as this divide exists, Imaginary Numbers and Real Numbers are mutually untouchable, unable to as much scratch each other. Rest assured.

She also later says it's separated from Real Number Space by a "thin wall of cognition." Again, I don't know if ソラ＝虚数空間, but maybe that's the same idea as

セカイ

宇宙

と

ソラ

虚空

の狭間. Or maybe not. It's worth it to note that descenders from ソラ are categorized as 内, while the "fictional" ones are 外. Aliens become part of human cognition despite being from outside the World, while beings coming from (through?) INS are still beyond human cognition. So there's at least a distinction between the cosmos and the imaginary. Both are from Outside the World, but Skadi suggests the eldritch ones need to use INS/Reverse Side to invade. Then Kukulkan suggests they're fictions created by Chaldea. So who knows! I'm confused.

Anyway​.

As far as FGO goes, as I mentioned before, 空洞 is only used in two important contexts. 地底大空洞, the Hollow Earth (lit. underground great cavity), and 空洞の虫, the Insect of the Abyss. In Tsukihime, ソラの空洞, the Hollow of the Cosmos/Heavens. Might be useful to note that 空洞 generally denotes a cavern otherwise, which is to say, an empty space within an object (or concept, I guess). But there must be something that contains the Hollow, be it the Planet or the Cosmos.

ソラの空洞 is 概念の宇宙, the Universe of Concepts. It might be the same as 記録宇宙, but in any case, this Hollow is obviously far beyond human observation. It's where Shiki sees the origin of everything, and it's probably the same thing Roa is talking about when he says "the flow (運河 as in Retroflow) converges, 「　」is enshrined in Heaven." In the furthest depths of this Hollow is probably where the Root is. A Hollow that can't be reached by man, presumably because of the canopy(ies) that is mentioned so often (and I won't bother trying to figure out the difference between Arc's canopy and Crimson Moon's). I will point out that Morgan describes the Fantasy Trees as "宇宙を閉じる", shutting out the universe, while the Moon is "ソラを塞ぐ", obstructing the Heavens. Different terminology, somewhat similar meaning. Can't be sure if there's any similarity. Point is though, even without Arc or Crimson Moon being active in Fate, ソラ in its entirety is still inaccessible to human observation by nature.

As for 空洞/奈落の虫, this Hollow is an endless, infinite pit (assuming that, here, 空洞＝奈落). Holmes describes Oberon's insect form as the concept of Hollowness, a "Hole" (穴). Interestingly enough, Chaos (as the god of 虚空) is described as a Hole in 空. 虚空 is a 空洞/穴 opened in 空? My brain is incapable of deciphering that, if it even means anything.

In Zero, 奈落 is used to describe what is happening to the World of Iskandar's Reality Marble. Everything, even spacetime itself, is being pulled into an abyss, where eventually there's nothing but the light of Ea. This is the original state of the world before creation, a return to nothing, at least as far as the Planet is concerned. Unfortunately there's no further description about Tartaros as the Incarnated Abyss, so that's a dud. But! Shiki does describe ソラの空洞 as infinite and talks about its furthest depths, so there is some resemblance to the concept of 奈落. From the given contexts though, it's unlikely 奈落 is a specific place or concept rather than just a description of something. An endless, hollow space where almost nothing exists. 空洞, in these contexts, is emptiness. You can fill it with something, but I don't think that's the point. It's supposed to represent the beginning (what Shiki sees) and the end (Oberon), I think. Where all things originated and where all things will return.

This is, however, all about outer space. It's beyond human observation and cognition, but it's physical and real. That is to say,

ソラ

虚空

の空洞. On the other hand, we have...

The Hollow of the Planet! For starters, in Agartha, Da Vinci refers to Helena's 地球空洞説, Hollow Earth Theory. It's not really elaborated upon again until LB5 when Holmes discovers Olympus is underground. He refers to the Spirit Tomb Albion as evidence of Hollow Earth, though Goredolf says that's incomparable to Olympus and is in denial about it. The hole in Atlantis leads to the Lostbelt's reality, and the Earth is simply a container. As we know, Spirit Tomb Albion physically leads to the Reverse Side... almost. Only in LB6 did Albion manage to create a path to the Reverse Side. But the idea is indeed comparable: the Earth's surface is a container for the Age of Gods. 地底大空洞 isn't actually used in the text but is a keyword for Agartha. What this likely means is that Agartha is simply a physical underground cavern, while 地球空洞 indicates a planet that is physically hollow. Anyway, 天体は空洞なり is almost certainly referring to the Reverse Side because the planet is the 天体 in question. 天体空洞, 地球空洞. But only almost, because then there's the 天体の卵, which as previously discussed is connected to ソラ while also being in the Reverse Side.

Last but not least, there's precious Taisui Xingjun. He's clearly important, because even if you look past the lore there's still the god damn title screen. Taisui the mirror image of Jupiter (or in FGO lore a star imagined to mirror Jupiter's revolution), as CHALDEAS is the mirror image of Earth. His NP is showing the star Taisui, and that pattern can be seen behind CHALDEAS on the title screen. But it's also syncretized with Shiròu, a mass of flesh that exists underground that moves in response to Jupiter's revolution. Voyager calls him a 星 that orbits the planet from inside. I don't quite know how to translate Chinese astrology to Nasuverse lore, but I'll make an attempt. Taisui Xingjun is the god of Taisui, so despite it not being a real star he exists as a manifestation of the concept because Shiròu basically fills the same role. The exact nature of Shiròu isn't really important, or at least I don't think so, just the fact that it exists underground and is the mirror image of a 天体. I've said this before, but the Alien Priestess is probably analogous to Taisui Xingjun because she's the god of a star that mirrors Earth. I don't know if there's any significance to Taisui Xingjun beyond that, but if he exists in the Hollow, then that's potentially interesting.

What I find interesting is that in the context of Tsukihime, the main concern is the cosmos. It's beyond man's reach. It's where Eternity is. In FGO, the main focus is the conceptual and imaginary. Reality is under invasion. The Reverse Side is obviously present and important in both settings, but primarily in Fate contexts is where we really dive into the universe of possibility. That said, the uses of these terms in their given contexts is probably deliberate and equally important. It would be a mistake to discount the perspective of outer space as it would be to discount the imaginary. We know the Animuspheres are all about the stars. We know INS is important somehow. Frankly, the Celestial Egg is the only thing I can think of that connects all of these dichotomous concepts. It's the egg/soul of the Celestial, it's located in the Hollow of the Planet, which is a World of Imaginary Numbers, and its observation/records extend to the Hollow of the Cosmos/Heavens, the Conceptual Universe from which everything originated.

So what did Daybit mean by "全てが空洞になる前"? Well, going back to CHALDEAS: Earth's texture is there. The question still remains if the bleaching of the planet or the placing of Earth's texture inside Chaldeas was the goal, or even if they were separate goals of separate actors. But the point is that whatever CHALDEAS is doing is not complete. There are still more steps before everything is made Hollow. Can what CHALDEAS is doing inside affect the rest of the cosmos? Maybe. But I think the planet is still important. The Fantasy Trees had to be destroyed for a reason. If CHALDEAS works like the Fantasy Trees, it can store, simulate, and anchor textures (and it should, because shape = observation = anchor, just that the Fantasy Trees had the shape of a galaxy while CHALDEAS has the shape of the universe), but even the Fantasy Trees were intended to anchor and overwrite. And so long as the Earth remains bleached, it will be cut off from the cosmos, the goal of humanity. So it's conceivable that CHALDEAS will anchor the Eight Lostbelt to the planet, and by doing so, will turn everything into a Hollow, whatever that might mean.

At this point, I'm guessing and not making conclusions. I'm not sure what kind of texture Marisbury would intend for or how that'll affect the universe, or moreover what the Alien Priestess' continued role is (Earthimilate). The mechanics of this plan are beyond me, because the exact capabilities of CHALDEAS are still unknown, but I think the components of the plan are clear-cut. The Fantasy Trees, like CHALDEAS, are observatories, because having the shape allows precise observation. That quality seems to be what gives the designation of "furthest ends" and become an anchor. But does that mean the galaxies they're observing are actually inside? Is anything happening to those actual galaxies? Not entirely clear. But I don't think they're pinning the cosmos to the surface at all. Another point of note is that the "contents" of Magellan disappeared when Atlas was summoned U-chan got her vessel.

EDIT: That being said, CHALDEAS does have some potentially similar qualities to the Celestial Egg (even ignoring my take that the Egg is the planet's soul), due to how it interacts with Textures and its relation to observation. Earthimilating should allow the Alien God to overcome any limitations CHALDEAS itself has, if it does have any like I assume. But that's kind of the main question I have here, what can and can't CHALDEAS do?

[TresserT]

A lot of your theory I disagree with, but a lot of it makes sense. Reminder that the white branches that are blocking out the cosmos waere (presumably) created by Olga. It's possible that its appearance and the bleaching were actually unrelated to Olga and it's all a red herring, but it's implied they were created by Olga.

The reason I'm bringing this up is because we don't actually know what's beyond that white shell. If Marisbury's goal was to swap the Earth's soul with the cosmos, then that white shell would be blocking it out.

With that said I'm not sure I buy into it.

[VTKajin]

I have no clue if my conclusion is right. I'm just looking at what the terms in the Animusphere chant means now in their various contexts, what we know about the elements of the Animusphere plan, and trying to connect the dots. My theory hinges on the assumption that CHALDEAS has some limitations and Marisbury still needs the planet itself to reach his goal. I could be entirely wrong in assuming that.

[redrue]

So I found an interesting theory from Twitter user @guipi2 that's pretty pertinent to this thread, especially with regards to the Celestial Egg and Olga’s purpose. It provides some points that haven’t yet been made by anyone else (unless I’ve missed it.) It’s in Japanese, which I have very little understanding of, so if those of you who are fluent can add more insights/correct me if I’ve misinterpreted anything, please feel free!

https://imgur.com/a/cyqSrH4
Original Twitter post: https://twitter.com/guipi2/status/16...VrNKrozzuCiLpQ

From what I’ve been able to gather from translating through DeepL, it proposes that Human Order’s ultimate and inevitable end goal is for humanity to reach the Root and become higher life-forms. This would, in effect, bring Human Order as we know it to an end, and the Animuspheres want to resolve the contradiction between this matter of course and their MO of ensuring Human Order’s continuation.

It then makes a comparison between Lev and Marisbury’s ways of addressing this. The rule of the “normal” inner universe states, “once you die, that’s it”. Lev, as Goetia, wanted to do it all over and make a world with no concept of death—rewriting the rule. Marisbury instead tried to circumvent it entirely by bringing an outer universe being—one who doesn’t follow the rule—into the picture. His plan involved creating CHALDEAS, the alien world/celestial egg that inverts “inner” and “outer” space. As for the being, we all know it now to be Olga.

Olga’s role as the “alien god” was remove humanity’s burden of becoming higher life-forms by ruling over them, as “When there is a higher dimensional being close to you, you don't try to become a higher dimensional being.” As Humanity’s President, Olga would go on to the stars in humanity’s stead. While this ensures Human Order continues as it always has, @guipi2 compares this to having a mother (Olga) caring for her NEET child (humanity) in perpetuity. Her own name, Olga Marie, references Mary, “Our Lady of Perfection”.

Never evolving, never growing up, humanity would become according to Daybit, “the worst intelligent life-forms in the universe.”

EDIT: Further adding that someone trying to turn humanity into forever NEETS fits in well with the theme of “(letting go of) fantasy and (accepting) reality”. With humanity safe and sound in CHALDEAS, any and all “possibilities” they might have will stay as fantasies.
That said, this theory does admittedly assume things about the world that haven’t been confirmed by anyone, and I struggle to understand how, if correct, Marisbury would find any of this “prosperous.” Still, I thought it was pretty neat.

[VTKajin]

It's neat to see theories from the Japanese side of the fandom. Also nice to see I'm not alone in my train of thought. The theme of "possibilities" I think is really important in the story.

I haven't really touched on the Celestial Sphere model and the inside vs outside motif with CHALDEAS because I don't quite comprehend it in the context of textures? So maybe someone with more knowledge of that would be able to come up with something better there. But it could all still be connected if the Alien Priestess/CHALDEAS could overwrite the universe's texture in its entirety to change the shape of the cosmos. Abby mentioned she can't see Earth from the cosmos but as far as we know the shape of it is still the same, so the void inside CHALDEAS =/= the void outside. Yet.

[RootoftheDream]

The only thoughts I can offer is pointing out that due to the Kirei Kotomine valentine scene, we also have a clear indication that Angra is an active observer and not just a 'secret character,


Which means we should also consider Hollow in relation to him.


Angra makes in HA makes a distinction between something being lost and gone when Bazett asks about his name. And it's also heavily implied that Angra chose to pretend to be Shirou to because he knew full well that there is no possibility of Shirou not ending the wish/smashing the Holy Grail


It's canonically stated in HA by Angra, and Caren, that Shirou Emiya/Hero of Justice/Master of Saber must the victor of the Fifth FuyukiWar, which was why he had to be one to emerge victorious to beat the system that was the Holy Grail.


Angra is able to affirm all things but the scenario has to actually be possible and within the limits of his contract/space. The so called Winchester Incident is something that Rin could totally cause.


Once Angra completed his world, it's falls apart, leaving nothing behind.


Just like a certain King of Magic/Doctor Roman's



The amount of similarities are too much, especially when the Traum Singularity clearly invokes/references this witg Charmalange saying: There was no room for me in proper human history, and clearly understanding the nature of the rebellion of in the Traum Singularity


And the fact that said Saber was specificed that have been bouncing in an unstable state for EXACTLY four days, which if you go back to the Prologue of the Lostblests, was exactly how long the original Chaldea team was isolated in a cell right before the cracking of Chaldeas, the missing bodies of A-Team, and of course the Invasion

And this is the big point I gonna make

Another name of Angra Mainyu is Arhiman. But there is also Airyaman which is stated as Avestan common noun for 'a members of the community or tribe'. but also became the name for a Yazata/divinty of health and healing . More importantly it's said noun original was denoting the social division of priests, and in Zoroastrian traditin Avestan Airyaman was also called Erman




Erman
Arhiman

Airyaman


Romani Archaman


Director Marisbilly Animasphere , Professor Lev Lainur Flaruos , Doctor Romani Archaman


Holmes, Moriarty, Watson


Kiritsugu, Kotomine, Shirou


The main reason I think it's going come back to Emiya is mostly because the a certain legend about Solomon asking a blacksmith to forge a magic ring that could bring him happiness whenever he looked up on it


The ring nor it's maker was never given a name and was just a normal ring , but it was inscribed with four words: This too shall pass


But that's my bit of overanalyzing

[All fictions]

I feel like I've seen this "tenuously connecting things back to Angra Mainyu/Emiya" theory before. It is written as if it connected the dots, but the connections are actually really random and disjointed (like just bringing up groups of three men like it proves something is ???). Unlike the theory of coming back to Singularity F, which is brought up in the game itself multiple times, it instead brings external stuff (Ahriman, the ring story) with no real evidence that it is relevant and not arbitrary.

All in all, I would call it overanalyzing yes.

[Helios]

Were Morgan's comments about Rayshifting being impossible without a coffin retconned back already? If I recall, in the prologue Guda and Mash rayshift to Fuyuki without using one.

[OnesFleetingGlory]

Morgan said this.

"Even if you could figure out how to rayshift, you couldn't make the return trip without a coffin."

So it's possible to rayshift without coffins, but in order for a person to go back, it must have a coffin in the real world to reconvert to physical body.

[Helios]

Not gonna lie, this confuses me even more when I remember the Prologue and how the Crypters were frozen in their coffins to prevent their deaths and all that and were later opened to find them empty.