Kadoc definitely wasn't supposed to know. Whatever Rasputin was hiding this for, it worked perfectly, because Kadoc was basically the only one who really took the Crypter war narrative at face value. I guess it's a case of don't give hints to the one guy who actually believes what you want them to believe.Originally Posted by Reign
The poor guy almost SL-ed himself for his girlfriend for nothing.
But if he went through with it, then AW's cover's blown way early in the story, since with Lostbelt destroyed instead of a reset would tip the rest of Crypters off.
Does the concept of controlled opposition really mean that little to you? Rasputin openly said that while U-Olga was unexpected, she still played the role CHALDEAS/Marisbury wanted her to play.
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Good luck with that, because I think now we're hitting the diminishing returns level of analysis in that respect. What is there left to analyze that we haven't already turned inside out...and how much of it can we be sure will actually play out in the way it's suggesting it will?
Last edited by InsertNameHere; February 1st, 2023 at 11:16 PM.
You're running under the assumption that the Apostles were created by Marisbury, which is something I'm rejecting. I think the Apostles were made to counter Marisbury's plans. Or more specifically, as CHALDEAS's equivalent to a counterforce, defending its Human Order.
The Apostles' purposes aren't as cleanly laid out as you're implying. They were summoned as needed and repurposed once they'd fulfilled their original goals.
-Muramasa was summoned specifically because Olga knew Wodime was going to betray her, and she needed someone to chop down Atlas. But he's then repurposed into dealing with LB6.
-Kirei was summoned so as to ensure Olga the Fantasy Trees were growing, but that was only so that Olga could descend. Once she had done so Kirei's purpose was fulfilled and Olga planned to destroy him. After that he was repurposed into essentially her caregiver.
-Moriarty wasn't even summoned until it was clear that Sherlock would betray Olga. And he was summoned specifically to defeat Sherlock.
Also, remember. For Olga, the Lostbelts were a means to an end. The plan was for Chaldea to destroy them up until Olympus, at which point Olga would descend and wipe Chaldea out. The Apostles didn't exist to screw over the Lostbelts as you said, they existed to ensure Olga could appear.
Where was this stated? I haven't seen anything like that anywhere.
I think the confusion lies in the fact that, up until now, the entirety of the story has seemed like one big conspiracy by a single mastermind. But I don't think that's the case. I think a LOT of what's happened has been Olga (most likely as a proxy for CHALDEAS itself. aware or not) running interference on Marisbury's plans. But a lot of it has also been Marisbury's plans all along.
I don't think it's a retcon or a red herring at all. Marisbury's goal is to hollow out CHALDEAS and get what's inside. By freezing it, Rasputin prevents CHALDEAS from being destroyed, but also prevents it from being hollowed. Thus, Marisbury's goal can't come to pass.
By LB7 it's obvious that Marisbury is going to win if things are left as is. So Daybit decides that destroying CHALDEAS altogether is better than letting it be hollowed out. But if Marisbury could have been stopped without destroying CHALDEAS I think that would have been preferable.
Last edited by TresserT; February 1st, 2023 at 11:41 PM.
Only U-Olga was summoned by accident, all of the others knew their full roles (Holmes' memory sealing notwithstanding). CHALDEAS and Marisbury were cooperating from the start, and there is no reason to believe otherwise given that Marisbury is somehow within CHALDEAS itself- if it did have a Counter Force opposed to him and the apostles were a part of it (neither of which seem plausible with our current evidence), they would have simply killed him. For whatever reason, the creation and destruction of the Lostbelts were a necessary part of the plan, probably as some form of energy harvesting. Whatever this "hollowing" is supposed to be, CHALDEAS either does not see it as a threat or is supportive of it. Even if CHALDEAS hadn't been frozen and Da Vinci was given an opportunity to figure out what was happening, the most she could have done was to delay the plan- if freezing it was going to prevent said plan Daybit would have said so.
When we were told that we were only supposed to make it to Olympus, that was a lie- U-Olga is specifically said to have never had the will to go through with actually destroying Chaldea. U-Olga never had any "plans" beyond the ones that were given to her, and she was starting to realize that by the end- only her sacrifice prevented her from learning the whole truth. I think your confusion is stemming from the idea that she possessed more agency than she was actually given.
Last edited by InsertNameHere; February 2nd, 2023 at 11:27 AM.
I'm not sure where you got this impression, but this is never stated.given that Marisbury is somehow within CHALDEAS itself
CHALDEAS is definitely Marisbury's Grand Order. His influence can still be felt even beyond death. Though whether or not the man himself is still around in some form is still undetermined.
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sniped
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Also, isn't it Kirschtaria's demand for other Crypters to get a chance that caused seven Lostbelts? Meaning that there's only one Lostbelt to take into account at the time, at least based on Alien God's offer. Or two at most counting Daybit's self-revival.
The alternative is that he somehow foresaw nearly everything up until this point. That implies he had foresight bordering on near-omniscience, like Gilgamesh. That sort of power would've gotten him a Sealing Designation long before he even came up with the idea of Chaldea if he possessed it.
It could be possible that CHALDEAS is simply following his final orders (a simulation device, planet or not, is still a machine incapable of thinking for itself: if anyone's familiar with Fire Emblem, you could draw a parallel with the character of Idunn from FE6, the one with Roy), but I don't think it would be able to exercise the degree of adaptability it did in using an entirely unexpected element (U-Olga) to its advantage if that was the case.
Last edited by InsertNameHere; February 2nd, 2023 at 11:52 AM.
No, there are tons of alternatives. That's a false choice.
I did just list one of them, that CHALDEAS is following its last instruction. As I said, the degree of autonomy it's shown with the U-Olga situation makes it unlikely but not impossible.
It might also be an AI (possibly one patterned after Marisbury's mind, but this need not be the case so long as it understands what orders he gave it and obeys them without questioning), with an intellect capable of allowing it to adapt to the changing situation of Novum Chaldea and the Lostbelts, but as far as we know true AIs require the use of the Moon Cell's photonic crystals to function as fully sentient beings. SE.RA.PH. confirms that the Moon Cell doesn't exist outside of the Extraverse, so if it is a sentient AI it's based on a completely unknown foundation. It might be a much simpler AI but that would be effectively the same as the "following its last received order" possibility with all its caveats.
At the bare minimum, it must have a way to communicate with its Apostles given Rasputin's mention of seeking its input.
Last edited by InsertNameHere; February 2nd, 2023 at 12:03 PM.
You literally edited your post after I replied...
I didn't catch the time of the reply. My mistake. At least it gave me an excuse to elaborate further on it.
This post is so filled with blatant falsehoods that I don't even know how to respond to it. Marisbury is never stated to be within CHALDEAS, as Petrikow said. The majority of your first paragraph is built around that assumption, which is false, so it's not worth overanalyzing on my part.
Daybit didn't need to say that freezing CHALDEAS prevented Marisbury's plan because Rasputin already said as much back during LB prologue. You can think it's retconned or a red herring lie by Rasputin, but nothing thus far has contradicted it.
Never is it stated that U-Olga "never had the will to go through with actually destroying Chaldea". Like, I have no idea where you even got that. It's completely false. There's no indication that the fact that we were only supposed to make it to Olympus was a lie either.
I'm not going to further clarify my argument because you haven't given any sort of counterargument. All you've done is insist on your personally believed narrative, which itself is HEAVILY based on misunderstandings on your part.
Last edited by TresserT; February 2nd, 2023 at 01:27 PM.
isnt Douman kinda a AI, he`s just a self acting spell or something
He said "The Animusphere's ambitions are over". That could just as easily have meant they were completed.
And I suggest that you read my reply to Petrikow's reply before continuing with your own personally believed narrative, which is hardly free from its own misunderstandings. You can start by explaining how an unthinking machine (because while CHALDEAS may be a quasi-planet, it is still a machine like any other and machines do not act on their own) could both spontaneously become self-aware and rebel against its creator's orders when it has shown no capacity for either. You're also continuing to take the Apostles' acting to throw off Chaldea and us at face value- knowing U-Olga's true role now, everything they said about serving the Alien God is dangerously misleading at best and a lie at worst. I'm not sure how much more obvious they could have made it that her "plans" were just inbuilt directives.
Having two conspiracies simultaneously running at once that oppose both us and each other at the same time requires far too many unlikely assumptions to be true: that neither of them has directly acted against the other in lieu of using us, that one of them (Marisbury) anticipated the actions of the other (CHALDEAS) before it was completed, and that the man who created CHALDEAS has completely lost control over his own creation despite there being no evidence to suggest that. Even if Marisbury isn't literally controlling it right now, it is far more likely that CHALDEAS is acting under orders given by him.
Last edited by InsertNameHere; February 2nd, 2023 at 01:45 PM.
Rebel is a strong word for my example, but
Spoiler:
While I cannot seem to find much information on Hibiki beyond what scant knowledge the TM wiki provides, I can only see the "self-aware" part applying here. She still (as far as I can tell) is wholly subservient to Caubac Alcatraz and does not seem capable of disobeying his orders. That said, this hypothetical autonomous and rebellious CHALDEAS would essentially have to be both spontaneously generated and go unnoticed by Marisbury before he could ensure its obedience (unless the disobedience itself was part of the plan- this is possible, but I wouldn't call it probable, to say nothing of such a twist being excessively contrived).Rebel is a strong word for my example, but
Spoiler:
Last edited by InsertNameHere; February 2nd, 2023 at 02:44 PM.
Hibiki stuff here: https://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthrea...=1#post3215419
A machine becomes self-aware and "rebels" against its creator because CHALDEAS isn't simply a machine- as Daybit states, it's its own complete planet. Reminder that while Marisbury created CHALDEAS, he doesn't understand how it works. He essentially copy pasted the entire planet and never bothered looking at what was inside. In doing so, it's not at all an unreasonable assumption that it, like the planet, would possess its own will. Furthermore, because he didn't understand how it worked, it's unlikely Marisbury would be able to control that will if it existed.
You're writing off everything the Apostles do as "actions taken just to throw off Chaldea" even when half the stuff they say and do aren't even directed at Chaldea. Rasputin, for example, says that they're crushing the Animusphere dream to Anastasia, with no knowledge that Chaldea is even around. Or that Moriarty, who blatantly betrayed the Alien God, was lying to throw us off its path.
As we know, a planet is incapable of directly taking action. It's not like CHALDEAS could have just taken Marisbury out back and shot him. When a planet takes action, it's by summoning something to deal with whatever problem. Gaia usually uses fairies and true ancestors, with Archetype Earth being its trump card. Alaya uses the counterforce- that is, summoning Servants. I'm not saying CHALDEAS acted through us, very much the opposite. I'm saying the Apostles were its equivalent of the counterforce.
Marisbury wouldn't have had to predict everything CHALDEAS was doing. In fact, if he had, most of this game probably wouldn't have occured.
Marisbury did not have to predict that Olga would be thrown into CHALDEAS, or that his A team would all be killed by Lev. He intended to use them to fulfill his goals, but his plan hit a roadblock. He just got lucky that one rando Master survived and was capable of fulfilling his plans as a member of Chaldea.
Marisbury did not have to predict that the Lostbelts would occur. We act independently to resolve the Lostbelts, and the fact that doing so removes obstacles to Marisbury's plan is a (for him) happy coincidence. Even the Chaldean thought that we were knowingly trying to enact Marisbury's plan, when we don't even know what his plan is. And when we do get an inkling of what's going on, we reject it.
You're giving Marisbury way more credit than he deserves. We already know a lot of things happened that he did not anticipate. He isn't a grand mastermind pulling all the strings behind the scenes. He had a goal and put things in place to reach that goal. But unforseen road blocks did occur, this much we know for sure. And he wasn't able to act around them- the best he could do was build Chaldea, give us our vague directive, and trust that his plan would work out because of our actions.
Last edited by TresserT; February 2nd, 2023 at 02:09 PM.
Those two things are not mutually exclusive. An artificial planet cannot be expected to behave like a natural one, especially when it's only the simulation part that cannot be seen inside. What of the part that generates the simulation? A machine is built to serve a purpose, and as we saw from LB6 a sentient being that rejects its purpose (should it be pre-defined in such a way) never fares well for doing so.
They are misdirecting the Crypters as well. Did you think that Anastasia wouldn't report to Kadoc what Rasputin told her? Or that as I mentioned, the phrasing he used has an alternate interpretation which isn't apparent at first glance? And Moriarty said he served the Alien World, i.e. he was going to bring U-Olga in line because she wasn't performing adequately. As Gil put it in CCC, it was never a betrayal because Moriarty never served the Alien God in the first place. None of the Apostles did, and U-Olga was the only one who didn't know it.You're writing off everything the Apostles do as "actions taken just to throw off Chaldea" even when half the stuff they say and do aren't even directed at Chaldea. Rasputin, for example, says that they're crushing the Animusphere dream to Anastasia, with no knowledge that Chaldea is even around. Or that Moriarty, who blatantly betrayed the Alien God, was lying to throw us off its path.
And yet now that the Apostles know that we oppose Marisbury's plan, they remain hostile towards us and one of them is directly planning something to get in our way. Hardly the type of thing to be expected if CHALDEAS's objective in stopping Marisbury and ours are the same now, is it? (Yes, their aid was critical to stopping ORT, but consider that it was purely an alliance of convenience and further motivated by Rasputin's interest in seeing how U-Olga would turn out after growing closer to us. We cannot and should not expect something similar to happen again.)As we know, a planet is incapable of directly taking action. It's not like CHALDEAS could have just taken Marisbury out back and shot him. When a planet takes action, it's by summoning something to deal with whatever problem. Gaia usually uses fairies and true ancestors, with Archetype Earth being its trump card. Alaya uses the counterforce- that is, summoning Servants. I'm not saying CHALDEAS acted through us, very much the opposite. I'm saying the Apostles were its equivalent of the counterforce.
At minimum, it should have the "intelligence" needed to determine that its existence is what makes the plan possible at all. You also need to consider that things may have been set up in a "heads I win, tails you lose" situation where the plan would have been completed regardless of whether Chaldea acted as it did or not. By pitting the Crypters against Chaldea, they're both distracted from the true threat and unable to cooperate long enough to share vital information with each other- and if one side eliminates the other, they'll be weakened enough to make them unable to fight back when they're deemed no longer necessary.
Then why would Daybit say that our pruning of the Lostbelts was part of the plan in a way that suggests Marisbury knew that both the Lostbelts and the Trees would exist? Why would Marisbury even know that seven Singularities existed in the first place when Singularity F was the only one detected? And why would the Chaldean, who supposedly opposes Marisbury's plan and thought we were doing his dirty work, have helped us in Atlantis as he did when letting us die would have stopped or at least delayed that plan by way of preventing the remaining Lostbelts from being pruned?Marisbury wouldn't have had to predict everything CHALDEAS was doing. In fact, if he had, most of this game probably wouldn't have occured.
Marisbury did not have to predict that Olga would be thrown into CHALDEAS, or that his A team would all be killed by Lev. He intended to use them to fulfill his goals, but his plan hit a roadblock. He just got lucky that one rando Master survived and was capable of fulfilling his plans as a member of Chaldea.
Marisbury did not have to predict that the Lostbelts would occur. We act independently to resolve the Lostbelts, and the fact that doing so removes obstacles to Marisbury's plan is a (for him) happy coincidence. Even the Chaldean thought that we were knowingly trying to enact Marisbury's plan, when we don't even know what his plan is. And when we do get an inkling of what's going on, we reject it.
In fact, I'm not wholly convinced that the Chaldean IS hostile to Marisbury's plan. I've heard some people say that he might be the Roman of some other world or from within CHALDEAS itself, brought back in a form that would be more likely to cooperate with the plan and/or with Marisbury. Notice how he always refers to him by name rather than by his title or something more formal, like Roman usually did. He certainly did seem chummy with Rasputin despite the latter discussing how they were preparing their next move against us.
Last edited by InsertNameHere; February 2nd, 2023 at 02:40 PM.
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