Grand Unified Theory: CHALDEA

[TresserT]

Then what would the Apostles' goal have been if Olga didn't become the "Alien God"? It's obvious that she was never actually necessary to their end goal, whatever it may be.

My guess was that the Apostles were never part of Marisbury's plan to begin with.

We know Olga being summoned was a fluke. We know the Apostles were summoned by the Alien God, and their purpose was to summon Olga, guide Chaldea, and guide the Crypters. We also know that the Crypters only got revived and the LB arc only kicked off because Lev threw Olga into CHALDEAS.

So basically, evidence points to the idea that had Olga never been thrown into CHALDEAS none of this ever would have happened. Marisbury's plan would have gone off without a hitch, and this obstacle of the Lostbelts/Apostles/Olga never would have slowed it down. The Apostles wouldn't have had a goal had Olga not become the Alien God because the Apostles' existence is preceeded by Olga.

[InsertNameHere]

Once again, I do not want to be rude, but that doesn't mean we can't start over. And very little doesn't mean none, if its not rude for me to say.

So what, if anything, do we have that we can still trust beyond "Marisbury did it"? It's gotten to the point where I doubt Olga was ever a true Beast; that position seems more likely to belong to Marisbury/CHALDEAS, kind of like how the Lahmu inherited the Beast II designation.

- - - Updated - - -

My guess was that the Apostles were never part of Marisbury's plan to begin with.

We know Olga being summoned was a fluke. We know the Apostles were summoned by the Alien God, and their purpose was to summon Olga, guide Chaldea, and guide the Crypters. We also know that the Crypters only got revived and the LB arc only kicked off because Lev threw Olga into CHALDEAS.

So basically, evidence points to the idea that had Olga never been thrown into CHALDEAS none of this ever would have happened. Marisbury's plan would have gone off without a hitch, and this obstacle of the Lostbelts/Apostles/Olga never would have slowed it down. The Apostles wouldn't have had a goal had Olga not become the Alien God because the Apostles' existence is preceeded by Olga.

Marisbury allegedly knew enough to suspect the existence of seven Singularities, and therefore that Goetia would try to interfere. Holmes at minimum would've then had to be active before Olga was thrown into CHALDEAS, assuming that the seven Singularities formed at roughly the same time as Singularity F. So unless there's some kind of weird retrocausality thing going on, the Apostles might still have been summoned, albeit under different circumstances and able to work towards their original goal more directly rather than babysitting U-Olga. We also can't rule out the fact that the other Apostles might not know everything- if the "Alien God" was completely wrong about her circumstances, why should her supposed underlings be operating under any less misinformation?

[Wolf Paladin]

What if Marisbury wanted to become the Alien god/Beast VII ?

He needed the bleaching to happen so the power of the Alien world was necessary and as mentioned the Alien god is meant to lead and coordinate the other Apostles so he would be in control.

I imagine that the Alien god chosen by the Alien God has to be compatible and that Marisbury knew that he was the best candidate until Olga was thrown in and was chosen instead.

I say this because if Olga wasn't meant to become the Alien God then who was ?

[OnesFleetingGlory]

What if Marisbury wanted to become the Alien god/Beast VII ?

He needed the bleaching to happen so the power of the Alien world was necessary and as mentioned the Alien god is meant to lead and coordinate the other Apostles so he would be in control.

I imagine that the Alien god chosen by the Alien God has to be compatible and that Marisbury knew that he was the best candidate until Olga was thrown in and was chosen instead.

I say this because if Olga wasn't meant to become the Alien God then who was ?

I speculate that the Alien God originally doesn't need an identity, or even humanoid form, but then Olga getting thrown to CHALDEAS leads to it assuming her identity and form.

Then, we learnt that OG Chaldea's purpose is to excise every Lostbelts in the bleached world. It's originally thought that with Wodime being offered a second chance in exchange for a Lostbelt for AG to descend to, but it seems to be a ploy, since what's the purpose of growing a Lostbelt, only to be destroyed? And it gets more complicated with Wodime demanding his friends to get the same chance as him, causing seven Lostbelts in total. Another note, now we know from Kadoc that Daybit could possibly be not revived along with the rest, which then explains why Wodime's simulation doesn't include him as his possible companion. Daybit is the only one privy of Marisbury's Grand Order, and so acted against it with what he has.

Then there's Young Moriarty's claim of opposing Alien God's plan, meaning U-Olga's, in accordance to Alien World's instructions. This means during Traum is when Alien World deemed that U-Olga had served her purpose, and so no longer necessary. Other Apostles like Rasputin simply play along with her while their true loyalty lies in Alien World, AKA CHALDEAS. Now why would Rasputin let her about to kill them all back in Olympus? Possibly, he needed to put on the act that U-Olga is their leader until the bitter end, distracting both her and Chaldea from the real mastermind, which is Alien World.

This is all speculation I could think of, but then I only have partial knowledge from LB7, and still unsure how accurate it is. This all might change as I read further with proper translations.

[InsertNameHere]

Given the reveals about U-Olga and the fact that her class was consistently labeled as Unknown for the bulk of LB7, it seems plausible to me that she was never really Beast VII at all.

Remember how the Lahmu and Bel Lahmu had Tiamat's Beast II designation? U-Olga may have possessed it for a similar reason- as a catspaw for the Alien World/Marisbury, she inherited the Beast VII class from them.

It also explains the Nega-Chaldea skill to a better degree while opening a way to work around it. As the founder of Chaldea and one of the people responsible for much of its technology, Marisbury would know more about the organization than anyone else. However, as Rasputin unintentionally reveals neither he nor the Alien World expected the possibility that Chaldea's views of what it means to protect Human Order would diverge from his own in such a way that it would effectively become a new organization. The quote about us being "judged by human order" however is worrisome. Could he have some means of Alaya's Counter Force?

There's also the likely prospect of Dantes being an Apostle. Notwithstanding the complete lack of foreshadowing, I looked through the script of the Kara no Kyoukai event and found that while Dantes said that "Solomon" asked for his aid, he never said that he was summoned by "Solomon". To be fair, it would have been (and still is) easy to assume that being asked for aid implies being summoned, but if that's not the case then it would establish his Apostle-hood. However, it wouldn't explain why Goetia, who still had access to Solomon's Clairvoyance, didn't suspect anything about his allegiance. I'd guess that given Holmes' role, Dantes (or at least the one of the Prison Tower- Dantes' second interlude suggests that he and the Chaldean Dantes are not exactly the same person despite sharing some of their memories) was intended to act as a bodyguard that would ensure Guda would remain physically and mentally stable enough to handle both the Singularities and the Lostbelts.

And here comes the elephant in the room- said position and his ability to enter Guda's mind at will means that he could incapacitate or outright kill Guda effortlessly.

[VTKajin]

The thing is, the Beasts are by and large our allies now. They are the enemies of Chaldeas. The Beast cycle started in response to Marisbury’s actions, whether intentional or not. The Beasts were touted as our big bads, but that’s becoming more and more iffy. Yes, we need to defeat them. But also, we’ve given them *all* a change in perspective that allows them to utilize their abilities to help us and humanity, because they do love humanity. Marisbury might fit that bill in his own twisted way, but he doesn’t need to be Beast VII to be the villain of the story.

Also there’s two Dantes.

[InsertNameHere]

The thing is, the Beasts are by and large our allies now. They are the enemies of Chaldeas. The Beast cycle started in response to Marisbury’s actions, whether intentional or not. The Beasts were touted as our big bads, but that’s becoming more and more iffy. Yes, we need to defeat them. But also, we’ve given them *all* a change in perspective that allows them to utilize their abilities to help us and humanity, because they do love humanity. Marisbury might fit that bill in his own twisted way, but he doesn’t need to be Beast VII to be the villain of the story.

Also there’s two Dantes.

Marisbury loves humanity more than anyone else, supposedly. If anyone qualifies as a Beast given his actions and supposed motives, it would be him. And his perspective at this point is far gone enough that he and/or CHALDEAS literally could not comprehend us turning against him.

It's certainly a better explanation than assuming he managed to dominate Beast VII so completely that it became ignorant of its own true nature.

[Lobo]

Btw, doesn't this basically confirms that Olga was Subject E? Not explicitly of course but...

……うそ。地球人類は、邪悪な生き物、なのに。
何年、何十年も、わたしを、解剖、したのに。
何度も、人間だって、仲間だって、叫んだのに。
誰も、聞いて、くれなかった。
なのに、どうして。
私が、こんなに、優しくされるはず、ない。

It seems she remembered being experimented on

[Petrikow]

Btw, doesn't this basically confirms that Olga was Subject E? Not explicitly of course but...

It seems she remembered being experimented on

Yeah, that was my thought too. Or well, one of the two, at least, hehehehe.

Obviously from what we know about the brainy vein thingy (wrong gender, to start), it doesn't quite match Olga's profile, so.... another point for GUT? dab

[InsertNameHere]

Yeah, that was my thought too. Or well, one of the two, at least, hehehehe.

Obviously from what we know about the brainy vein thingy (wrong gender, to start), it doesn't quite match Olga's profile, so.... another point for GUT? dab

It also suggests the possibility that her memories were falsified. Even without the issue of the brain-thing's gender, U-Olga and Subject E were both active at the same time as of Traum. So unless she could be in two places at once without either of her bodies having any knowledge of the other it's the only explanation that makes sense. This applies even if we assume that the stick was the one that was the real Subject E. (The identity or even the existence of Bluebook on the other hand isn't even mentioned. It's like they forgot that plot thread entirely.)

[VTKajin]

No one from Chaldea would know who Bluebook is given he's from 2117. And Subject E is not in Traum. Specimen E is.

[Lobo]

U-Olga and Subject E were both active at the same time as of Traum. So unless she could be in two places at once without either of her bodies having any knowledge of the other it's the only explanation that makes sense.

Not if you assume that Subject E and Specimen E are two different entities. Subject E (Olga) being the one that got dissected for decades on Bluebook's world and Specimen E being the one that young Moriarty showed the crew in Traum.

Still, Olga's memory for sure got tampered in some way, like in Olympus she make it sound that she came because earthlings tortured her comrade (maybe thats where Specimen E plays a role? Planted in Traum as the tortured comrade that called U-Olga the Alien God to Earth. All to fullfil that role for Olga to play) and then in Mictlan she admits that she was the one tortured by earthlings when not all of her memories (of her time playing the role of the Alien God) came back to her.

[VTKajin]

Not if you assume that Subject E and Specimen E are two different entities. Subject E (Olga) being the one that got dissected for decades on Bluebook's world and Specimen E being the one that young Moriarty showed the crew in Traum.

Still, Olga's memory for sure got tampered in some way, like in Olympus she make it sound that she came because earthlings tortured her comrade (maybe thats where Specimen E plays a role? Planted in Traum as the tortured comrade that called U-Olga the Alien God to Earth. All to fullfil that role for Olga to play) and then in Mictlan she admits that she was the one tortured by earthlings when not all of her memories (of her time playing the role of the Alien God) came back to her.

Yeah, she believes the fake story of Bluebook's world. Specimen E was likely instrumental in her understanding of the Alien World when she was summoned.

[Petrikow]

SHE HAS TO PLAY ALONG WITH THE FICTION

[GhostKutenaiabi]

Also there’s two Dantes.

Where did you get this from?

[Petrikow]

It's what his latest interlude is all about.

[InsertNameHere]

Not if you assume that Subject E and Specimen E are two different entities. Subject E (Olga) being the one that got dissected for decades on Bluebook's world and Specimen E being the one that young Moriarty showed the crew in Traum.

Still, Olga's memory for sure got tampered in some way, like in Olympus she make it sound that she came because earthlings tortured her comrade (maybe thats where Specimen E plays a role? Planted in Traum as the tortured comrade that called U-Olga the Alien God to Earth. All to fullfil that role for Olga to play) and then in Mictlan she admits that she was the one tortured by earthlings when not all of her memories (of her time playing the role of the Alien God) came back to her.

I'm not willing to make that assumption- it requires believing that two completely different aliens crashed on Earth and were tortured in Area 51 in order to get them to call others of their kind without having any connection to one another at all. We also never did learn for sure what actually happened to Bluebook; since the Daybit-David connection turned out to be wrong, we have no way of verifying anything and can't just go back to the Singularity to take a closer look at the bodies (if they are indeed bodies at all).

My general speculation is that Subject/Specimen E was generated as a story of sorts to justify the coming of the Alien God, which was then implanted in U-Olga as a way for her to rationalize her command to oversee the bleaching and the other Apostles. Remembering it as if it happened to her might either mean that the recall process was corrupted due to missing her heart or that she was forced to play the role of both the alien and its comrade for one reason or another. Either way, the alien story is a useful fiction that ensures that she won't suspect the truth and rebel like Muramasa did when his proverbial leash started to grow loose.

[Petrikow]

I'm not willing to make that assumption- it requires believing that two completely different aliens crashed on Earth and were tortured in Area 51 in order to get them to call others of their kind without having any connection to one another at all.

What, it doesn't require that in the slightest. In fact, that would be completely nonsense.

[VTKajin]

Most of the evidence regarding Subject/Specimen E is available from Bluebook's memories and Traum. The implications are pretty unambiguous, even if you can interpret it in a few ways.

[InsertNameHere]

What, it doesn't require that in the slightest. In fact, that would be completely nonsense.

But can we be sure that what we were shown in Traum wasn't the same alien with a different name and that Traum wasn't actually in Bluebook's world? They were both described as "treelike", and that humanlike corpse had to have gotten there somehow- the most parsimonious explanation is that it's Bluebook's remains.