Badass Versus Thread

[eddyak]

Goetia's tricks are immunity to NPs, living in a parallel dimension and burning human history to supply himself with energy enough to rewrite human history. He's a bag of tricks, but he himself can't just output enough power to punch out super god types.

Tiamat, well, she's only immune to death as long as humanity lives, and Scion pulls that off multiple times over at the end (even if we discount the fact that he'd likely be able to pull something out of his own bag of tricks that'd just nope her immortality), and she got her butt kicked by just a bunch of mid-level gods and Heroic Spirits.

[Ronove]

Goetia's tricks are immunity to NPs, living in a parallel dimension and burning human history to supply himself with energy enough to rewrite human history. He's a bag of tricks, but he himself can't just output enough power to punch out super god types.

The total energy value of Ars Almadel Salomonis is equivalent to a galaxy, and was compared to a supernova in time temple.

Tiamat, well, she's only immune to death as long as humanity lives

She's immune to death period. Paradox restoration is only one immortality that was taken away from being dumped into the underworld. She still lacked a concept of death even with that, and KH had to give her one. Tiamat fundamentally lacks a spiritual core, so she will regenerate no matter how many times she's destroyed.

and she got her butt kicked by just a bunch of mid-level gods and Heroic Spirits.

Grand servants and equivalents: King Hassan, Merlin, Gilgamesh, Enkidu
Top-tier gods: Ereshkigal w/underworld authority and Quetzalcoatl

Nobody here was mid-level anything. They're all at or near the peak of the setting even individually.

[SpoonyViking]

Also, Tiamat *wanted* to lose.
Though, if this Scion is a human being, she might still want to lose against him?

[eddyak]

The total energy value of Ars Almadel Salomonis is equivalent to a galaxy, and was compared to a supernova in time temple.

Fair enough- but this is all after he's done the burning, his 3k years of prep time.

She's immune to death period. Paradox restoration is only one immortality that was taken away from being dumped into the underworld. She still lacked a concept of death even with that, and KH had to give her one. Tiamat fundamentally lacks a spiritual core, so she will regenerate no matter how many times she's destroyed.

Except if she's murdered with some even higher tier hax. Scion definitely has some of that, and if he doesn't, he has ten thousand other ways of locking her up, time paradoxing her, figuring out ways she dies.

Roman & the rest were going "whoa she can even travel interstellar", but interstellar travel is one of Scion's most basic things.

Grand servants and equivalents: King Hassan, Merlin, Gilgamesh, Enkidu
Top-tier gods: Ereshkigal w/underworld authority and Quetzalcoatl

Nobody here was mid-level anything. They're all at or near the peak of the setting even individually.

Wasn't saying the heroes were mid level, but they're still just heroes- none of them come close to the kind of power the gods have, and none of the gods present come close to the actual top tier of gods we've seen- Godjuna, Zeus, Tiamat, and so on.

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Also, Tiamat *wanted* to lose.
Though, if this Scion is a human being, she might still want to lose against him?

Scion is definitely not human.

[Byegod]

Scion is a eldritch horror pretending to be vaguely human.

foreigner when? (surprised bow hasnt published it by now tbh)

[Serverntclassslave]

here a wiki link to scoin (p.s its full of spoilers so you've been warned)

https://worm.fandom.com/wiki/Scion

and actually couldn't king Hassan kill him what with his whole force the concept of death on all things move, not on his own but maybe teamed up with gilgamesh or enkidu?

if not is there anyone who could kill him individually in the nasu verse that isn't the counter force, or at least maybe a specific team of servants?

[Ronove]

Fair enough- but this is all after he's done the burning, his 3k years of prep time.

Yeah but, we don't know a version of Goetia that hasn't done all his burning. Seems like a tangent tbh.

Except if she's murdered with some even higher tier hax. Scion definitely has some of that, and if he doesn't, he has ten thousand other ways of locking her up, time paradoxing her, figuring out ways she dies.

Sure, just arguing against the "humanity" bit. That's underselling how hard it was to kill her honestly.

Wasn't saying the heroes were mid level, but they're still just heroes- none of them come close to the kind of power the gods have, and none of the gods present come close to the actual top tier of gods we've seen- Godjuna, Zeus, Tiamat, and so on.

Heroes are not weaker than gods. It's not that simple as a bunch of heroes attained divine power or the power to kill the divine. We've known this as far back as FSN where it was said noble phantasms let heroes surpass their station. In Gilgamesh's case, Ea is an authority class noble phantasm on the same level as Romulus-Quirinus'. Gilgamesh also has a history of killing things stated to be stronger than his gods. (Gugalanna and Humbaba). King Hassan as a grand servant is equal to Lion King. The same Lion King whose NP rivals Surtr's planet-razing nuke.

Quetzalcoatl is a demiurge. She is at the same rank as Zeus/Odin/Shiva etc. Ereshkigal is the goddess of the underworld, and so long as her authority is active, she is far stronger than a demiurge and can trounce one if she desired. They are by definition top-tier gods. The ones you even listed aren't "just" gods anyway, they are composite divinities and a beast.

[Menwearpink]

Goetia basically has a super spirit bomb to use. The collected energy is part of his power but isnt also at the same time in that sense?

still he only really qualifies as a beast thanks to it so shrug.

As far as amount of energy I’m pretty sure we’ve seen from Rhongo that units of energy don’t completely 1:1 correlate to destructive power anyway.

Servants are fighter jets with nukes (Noble Phantasms) as Nasu says. But Divine Spirits carry around authorities and their magecraft is in the realm of Excalibur when they go serious so.

Divine Spirits and servants are completely different categories for sure.

[Mementore]

Quetzalcoatl is a demiurge. She is at the same rank as Zeus/Odin/Shiva etc. Ereshkigal is the goddess of the underworld, and so long as her authority is active, she is far stronger than a demiurge and can trounce one if she desired. They are by definition top-tier gods. The ones you even listed aren't "just" gods anyway, they are composite divinities and a beast.

When she fought against Tiamat her power were already diminished.
And I agree about Servant and Gods being on a totally different level, especially pre-Seraf gods who even without authorities can kill Heracles in two blows.

[Ronove]

When she fought against Tiamat her power were already diminished.

Quetzalcoatl's power was cut in half. She did no damage to Tiamat with both of her NPs. Nothing would have changed if she could have doubled her output. Probably doesn't help that Tiamat had a stronger form that raised her powers exponentially.

And I agree about Servant and Gods being on a totally different level, especially pre-Seraf gods who even without authorities can kill Heracles in two blows.

You say this like there aren't servants that can kill Heracles in 1.

Not sure what you mean by "without" authorities. If you're talking about Artemis, her anti-planet canon is her authority (function). And it's as strong as Zeus' lightning. Not really selling servants and gods being on totally different levels when you're using one of the biggest extremes out there. Gods are "superior" existences because they are concepts and nature, but this doesn't mean they are by default stronger in combat. We wouldn't have god slayers if that was the case.

[Mementore]

Ishtar and Ereshkigal are among the best servants we have in fgo and they are weakened by having to use human as a vessel.
The same weakened Ishtar is capable of creating a singularity.
A full power one could probably be matched only by Grand Servants and a few others normal Servants (we are talking about Gil-level) and she is by no means an extremely strong goddess (not a weak one either).
You are partially right, heroes that can fight gods exist, but heroes in general are way weaker than gods.
You talked about the Lion King and Gilgamesh but they are the farthest thing from an average hero.

[Ronove]

Ishtar and Ereshkigal are among the best servants we have in fgo and they are weakened by having to use human as a vessel.
The same weakened Ishtar is capable of creating a singularity.

Actually the Babylonian goddesses don't have that limitation, or at least not to the same degree as other goddess servants. Kingu said from the beginning they were true goddesses. Additionally, using that same interlude where Ishtar created a singularity, Gilgamesh said this.

Gilgamesh: Honestly, how is that supposed to be a goddess of fertility? The lineage of the Earth Mother Goddesses has worse quality than the lousy gods of evil. Hey you, the mongrel who did nothing to deserve being part of this mess! Keep a close eye on that thing to prevent her from committing to her stupidity!
Fujimaru: When even the King couldn’t do that? / When even the King just let her be?

Gilgamesh: Fool. It is not that I could not, just that I did not. I just did not have any involvement. It is just like how you do not pick up chestnuts in a bonfire because you know they are about to burst. For starters, gods (in other words, nature) have their retaliation mechanisms. They are not something we can defeat for no good reason. Additionally, although she is slightly downgraded, she is still a genuine goddess. Forget not for a second that she could destroy you without a second thought whenever she wants. If you insist on engaging with her knowing that, be prepared for one or two more hundreds of dangerous situations like this one. I have no more warnings. Good luck.

For Ereshkigal it doesn't even matter. Her authority doesn't come from her vessel, it comes from being the ruler of the underworld. And she can use that optimally. Which is why it was stated Quetzalcoatl would stand 0 chance in a fight against her.

A full power one could probably be matched only by Grand Servants and a few others normal Servants (we are talking about Gil-level) and she is by no means an extremely strong goddess (not a weak one either).

Are we talking about Ishtar? She is a major goddess/greater goddess. The strongest in her Mesopotamia, with 8 different authorities.

You are partially right, heroes that can fight gods exist, but heroes in general are way weaker than gods.

Again, not that simple. I see it as gods being stronger existences in body. The things a god can do naturally exceed anything heroes can do. Even when it comes to magic power, Gilgamesh has stated to be the best a servant can get, but he tires out after summoning 7-8 servants in a suitable era. Meanwhile Lion King can summon the whole knights of the round and maintain them in an era past the AoG, with no backdraws. Poseidon has 4 cores, each with as much mana as a holy grail. Gods authorities are basically miracles. Heroes can't do this, naturally, but they reach that realm with noble phantasms. Hektor, as one example, stopped Artemis' canon with Durandal. Arash cancelled Rhongomyniad. Ozymandias' entire kit is monopolizing the legitimate authorities of his pantheon. Heracles' Nine Lives is a technique Ares and Romulus sought to adopt for themselves etc.

[Mementore]

I see it as gods being stronger existences in body. The things a god can do naturally exceed anything heroes can do. Even when it comes to magic power, Gilgamesh has stated to be the best a servant can get, but he tires out after summoning 7-8 servants in a suitable era. Meanwhile Lion King can summon the whole knights of the round and maintain them in an era past the AoG, with no backdraws. Poseidon has 4 cores, each with as much mana as a holy grail. Gods authorities are basically miracles. Heroes can't do this, naturally, but they reach that realm with noble phantasms. Hektor, as one example, stopped Artemis' canon with Durandal. Arash cancelled Rhongomyniad. Ozymandias' entire kit is monopolizing the legitimate authorities of his pantheon. Heracles' Nine Lives is a technique Ares and Romulus sought to adopt for themselves etc.

Most of those heroes you mentioned, apart from being part god, are exceptional servants that are probably in the top 30 servants. Most servants are way weaker, you can't use Gilgamesh or Herc when you talk about heroes in general.

Right now I can't think of a hero who could represent the average strength of servants, but I'm quite sure that he would be weaker that the "average" god.

[Ronove]

Most of those heroes you mentioned, apart from being part god, are exceptional servants that are probably in the top 30 servants. Most servants are way weaker, you can't use Gilgamesh or Herc when you talk about heroes in general.

Right now I can't think of a hero who could represent the average strength of servants, but I'm quite sure that he would be weaker that the "average" god.

And every god I mentioned were major divinities. We can talk about how hard finding an average hero is, but I think finding an average divine spirit is way harder. All the ones that appear in FGO that fought are already top of the line. I think Lion King was the first, and she is absurd compared to the norm. Jaguar Man might be the most 'normal' of the pack, and she was buffed by territory.

That's what happens when a setting has everyone be special snowflakes who shine in particular conditions but fail in others. And even then, I never argued anything about 'average' heroes. The post I replied to suggested all gods were stronger than all heroes as if that was an absolute.

Wasn't saying the heroes were mid level, but they're still just heroes- none of them come close to the kind of power the gods have, and none of the gods present come close to the actual top tier of gods we've seen- Godjuna, Zeus, Tiamat, and so on.

[OnesFleetingGlory]

Battle between High-Servants:

Meltryllis vs Sitonai

With Meltryllis has access to Virgin Laser Palladion (supposedly tag team NP with Passionlip, but her Lancer self can do it on her own somehow), while Sitonai has access to Pohjola Fimbul, and can summon Shadow Herc (is this Lostbelt-only stuff or something she's naturally capable of?)

Wonder if Melt's Lotan essence count as a weakness against Sitonai.

[Byegod]

Most of those heroes you mentioned, apart from being part god, are exceptional servants that are probably in the top 30 servants. Most servants are way weaker, you can't use Gilgamesh or Herc when you talk about heroes in general.

Right now I can't think of a hero who could represent the average strength of servants, but I'm quite sure that he would be weaker that the "average" god.

The average servant flat out doesnt exist if you take in both paramters and NP

[Serverntclassslave]

archer EMIYA is a good example of this, as due to the way UBW works hes never at disadvantage so despite being a "average" his versatility allows to go toe to toe with likes Hercules and Cu-chan. i mean the only servants who could even be called weak are probably maybe fran. i mean think about medusa is consdered one of the stronger servants out their and yet she gets beaten by castors master (not even a servant) so yea average just isnt a thing in fate.

[CO9p5JMGv!p9]

i don't disagree with the notion in general, but emiya certainly hasn't performed well against cu

[Reign]

Wasn't Astolfo given as an example of an average Servant in some interview, or am I mixing up fan assumptions with writer statements?

[Rafflesiac]

Astolfo's 3rd-rate without NPs IIRC.