Thank you. My thoughts exactly.
Thank you. My thoughts exactly.
Originally Posted by Deathhappens
Exactly. People say it's a simple as only going if you don't see yourself at risk, but there's the problem. People think they're safe, aren't and fill hospitals. Even if they're safe, they might still carry the virus and infect people of their evironment who aren't as safe. They're choosing profits over safety and they deserve criticism.
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Let me just repeat myself: Don't treat fans like they're infantile invalids who needs to have their hands held and led through life by institutions.
Fans aren't children. An argument based around a comparison to children isn't appropriate. It's a disingenuous, bad-faith argument. Completely, utterly asinine, and quite frankly insulting to treat them as children who can't think or choose for themselves.
Last edited by Orivaa; October 13th, 2020 at 07:02 AM.
It doesn't have anything to do with children, it's more like, don't be bloody idiots who help spread the virus further.
Even if everybody in the world was slightly responsible (which you can see now is a stretch and a half) and didn't go to public places if they felt even slightly poorly, there are still carriers, who'll show no signs of the disease, but are still going to be breathing and talking and all those things that toss out virusy microdroplets.
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His argument was based around a comparison to children. It wouldn't work if it weren't children, which is exactly why it was so disingenuous.
I don't understand why you or Inuhanyou or bassgs435 bring this up. What relevance does it have to my argument? You can feel free to hold that viewpoint if you want, but it doesn't have any relevance to the argument about whether the potential virus-related result of going to the theater to watch HF3 is the responsibility of Aniplex or the specific individuals who went. That is what the conversation is about.
Last edited by Orivaa; October 13th, 2020 at 09:31 AM.
You're placed in a Trolley Problem. Are you more culpable than the person who tied the people to the tracks? There, same argument but without the reference to children. Now you can actually engage with it.
Probably because the consequences of the choice are
A) a far more important topic than culpability.
B) an almost unavoidable part to the discussion of culpability.
This was about Aniplex making a bad choice for profits and greed (not like Aniplex being greedy is anything new when you think about their overpriced physical releases) and you deciding to play corporate defense for free.
Aniplex shares fault with viewers for any potential results. Saying Aniplex is completely innocent is wrong. Aniplex airs it expecting profits, thus expecting people in a time where expecing people means expecting spread of a dangerous pandemic. They aren't even paying you. Stop playing corporate defense
And if people really are so mature and don't need to be taken care of and all that, there'd be no need for governments to enforce lockdowns, limited gatherings and whatever other anti-pandemic measures and we could place all blame and responsibility on individuals making poor choices while people keep dying and suffering
Your argument is nonsensical.
Last edited by bassgs435; October 13th, 2020 at 10:06 AM.
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I'm not sure the Trolley Problem applies at all. You're going to have to explain to me how the Trolley Problem is equivalent to whether the responsibility of going to the theater lies with Aniplex for making the cinema available, or the fans for going.
I don't care? Whether or not it's "more important" isn't relevant to me. If that simply means you or the other people prefer to talk about that instead, feel free to do so amongst yourselves, but don't derail the conversation I started about something else.
How does it impact the question of responsibility? In what way is the outcome changed? When nothing comes of it, it's the individual's responsibility, but if something does come of it, it's Aniplex's responsibility???
Because the blame game is stupid and pointless, as it always is whenever it comes up outside of a court of law, or anywhere else it doesn't have any real repercussions.
The cinemas are irresponsibly opening, and the viewers are irresponsibly going.
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This was about the responsibility being laid at the feet of Aniplex for grown adults choosing to go to the cinema. That is specifically the part I objected to. Whether or not you think they made "a bad choice for profits and greed" doesn't actually factor into that. If you think that, good for you, but it's irrelevant to the argument I initiated.
You're deciding to deny grown adults their agency and right of choice and responsibility by infantilizing them. I couldn't care less about Aniplex. I care about people being treated like the adults they are rather than babies.
No, they don't, because it's the people who go who has full responsibility for their own actions. It's their choice, their responsibility, and their risk. Unless you can find evidence of Aniplex trying to maximize the chances of the people in the cinema getting Covid, it's not their responsibility. They aren't doing anything other than saying, "hey, if you wanna go watch this movie, you can."
I disagree with those measures, but I am not going to get into that. It's an entirely different rabbit hole that I don't care to use the energy falling into. Point is, whether or not lockdowns are required or yada yada yada, doesn't actually change the issue of responsibility.
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If you think it's stupid and pointless, why are you intruding on a conversation specifically about the blame game? And why do you go from calling it pointless and stupid to then immediately participating in it?
If you don't like the blame game, by all means don't join the argument. No one's forcing you.
This is to save lives. If infantilizing people and taking away right of choice is what it takes to save lives, it's right when people have shown trusting their responsibility doesn't work and they keep putting themselves and lots of others at risk. You honestly sound like an asshole. I wonder if you'd be singing the same tune if someone close to you died and the infection that killed said person could be traced to cinemas.
And my evidence of Aniplex increasing risk is in HF being a popular film of a popular franchise. My evidence is the sales data of previous films, FGO and Fate stuff in general. There'll be people who want to watch the movie, and if cinema's the only way, they'll go and Aniplex knows this. They wouldn't put the movie on cinemas if they didn't see that people will go. The move is done thinking about profits. Profits that come from people going to the cinema. They deserve criticism and blame. And your semantics about people's free will and whatever don't matter in the face of protecting lives.
More lives can be protected if Aniplex didn't put the movie on cinemas and did a digital showing instead. They didn't and chose the riskier option to health to dismiss the risk to profits that'd come from people pirating the digital showing. Thus Aniplex is as much to blame as the people going and the cinemas and politicians who didn't stop them from putting the movie on cinemas
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I'm not 100% sure how it works south of the border but shouldn't you guys be complaining to your local/state government to shut down movie theaters rather than Aniplex (who's simply taking advantage of your inept politicians)? Places like that shouldn't even be open in the first place especially when many areas are right in the middle of the second wave.
Perhaps we should, but many of them don't care enough, especially in Texas and Florida.
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Also, this won't stop Aniplex from going ahead with this awful plan unless everybody does it simultaneously or enough cities take issue that it ceases to be profitable. Also, still want to see the movies, just safely, is all.
Both the trolley problem and going to the movies during a pandemic are choices of sacrificing something personal to you or endangering innocent strangers. Same mechanism, just lower stakes and a pettier "something personal". Movie goers are as culpable as the lever puller, and Aniplex is as culpable as the person tying people to train tracks.
It's not derailing a conversation you started, it's rerailing a conversation SirGau started.
True that. It's the government failure
They don't care? Damn there's police that can do sweeping to force close those public places if the government care enough
The theater can put scan wherever they want, it's still can't be relied on
In this case everyone can be blamed including the people and company. Why just focusing on the "greedy" irresponsible aniplex? Why the theater itself open in the first place?
Last edited by Wandering Swordwoman; October 13th, 2020 at 10:54 PM.
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Blame the local governments for allowing theaters to reopen, not necessarily the theaters themselves. Besides, I place a lot of the blame on Aniplex because they didn't have to do things this way, and could have made the screenings virtual at the expense of some profits. That is a 100% safer alternative and avoids the negligent nightmare that is American COVID-19 restrictions.
All right, so we got a fundamental disagreement, then. You don't believe in individual responsibility, I do. You're a authoritarian collectivist, I'm a libertarian individualist. It doesn't sound like we're going to get anywhere, as our base values and worldview are just too different for us to find common ground. So, I'm going to step out of this conversation between us here. Good day to you.
The trolley problem is an ethics thought-experiment wherein a train car is heading down one track towards where some greater-than-one amount of people are tied to the tracks. There is a lever next to the track that would switch the train unto a different track where there are less people tied to it. The moral conflict is whether or not you switch the track to save the greater amount of people, at the expense of you directly causing the death of a lesser number of people. And if you choose not to, are you then responsible for the greater number of people who died?
Unless your understanding of the problem is different, I don't see how it relates to this. The trolley problem is rather specific in its application. It works because the outcomes are completely set in stone, and they are both the same sans the number of people who die.
I'm not trying to play stupid, I just don't think it applies. If you've got a different conception of it than I do, then feel free to explain yours and what the crucial difference is that makes it applicable here.
No? SirGauoftheSquareTable said, "It's not the moviegoers I'm mad at, but Aniplex for putting peoples' lives at risk."
Whatever the surrounding conversation was, that snippet has its own set of logic and morality, which is what I replied to, creating a conversation around the logic employed there. I wasn't derailing any conversation. Something was explicitly said that I then commented on. The conversation I created was centered around the logic used there. Then people came in and derailed the conversation I had started by making points that were irrelevant to what I've said and to the conversation topic as a whole.
The version I knew of the trolley problem had a loved one on one track and 5 strangers on the other. It was about small personal benefit vs large collective benefit, not about agency. Though I guess this agency version is just as valid of a thought experiment.
I brought up children because humans can be infantile and corporations and corrupt politicans take advantage of exposing that and using it to their benefit. Its not a matter of simply people making choices but being allowed to make choices that will negatively impact more than themselves.
Covid is a situation with the greatest tragedy and there is blame to go around if things get out of hand.
True they can make just go website to stream the movie if they pay $$ (which make it should be cheaper because minus all the luxury in theater), the aniplex don't even want to cut any single penny profits from what they can get in theater screeening.
The locals and government also really lack of awareness, if people don't want to go, then the theater will think twice instead screening for empty seats.
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