Create-A-Servant 3

[Wyvern]

Well now, here's an idea. A Lover / Monster servant duo... like Beauty and the Beast.

Or maybe a servant who is both Lover and Monster, like the nymph Scylla, who was turned into a monster by Circe in a fit of jealousy. I think I'll get cooking~

[Cursed by Fortuna]

0

[BnEl15]

Hmm, I should really consider writing a Lover sometime in the future. Haven't found any amazing love stories so far though, outside of what I or other people here had done before. Time for some research, I guess.

[DelRey]

I share Hux' opinion on martial artists. Fists like a blade, kicks piercing through armor like a lance, punches so fast they can create projectiles in the air,, martial artists that conquered their world by storm, techniques designed to kull, mad warriors, even magicians using the human physique itself to reach the root are possible. Those with Jacobs Lymbs could perhaps even qualify as Ruler.
With that same logic i get now why Monster doesnt have to be a thing.

[Wyvern]

Hmm, I should really consider writing a Lover sometime in the future. Haven't found any amazing love stories so far though, outside of what I or other people here had done before. Time for some research, I guess.

Doesn't have to be a romance. The Lover Class includes other forms of love beyond Eros (Romantic)

There was a Thetis Servant a while back that represented Storge (Familial) love, and focused around Thetis' love for her son, and how she can grant the same protections to a person as her Noble Phantasm.

I thought about making Eve as something similar to that. A representation of motherly love instead of the usual Original Sin depictions... even if I was pretty tempted to make a Sinner version of her like I did Anne Boleyn.

There were also some inquires about whether Patroclus and Hephaestion fit the bill due to how their relationships with Achilles and Iskandar became a major feature of their characters.

Obsessive Love, yandere style, is also another possibility.

Lover Claude Frollo when?

[Cursed by Fortuna]

0

[AAM1232]

That also kind of removes the charm of making sheets though, where you have to use some creativity to design your Servant even if they may not have a perfect fit in any 'canon' Classes. It feels like having your cake and eating it by just making up a Class to fit things more easily in my opinion.

[Lambda-Nu]

That also kind of removes the charm of making sheets though, where you have to use some creativity to design your Servant even if they may not have a perfect fit in any 'canon' Classes. It feels like having your cake and eating it by just making up a Class to fit things more easily in my opinion.

I like seeing people experiment with making fanon Servant classes, since it's fun and interesting. While I personally do not feel confident in my ability to make one, I do enjoy the Monster and Striker classes and plan to make some sheets using them in the future.

[realcasually]

I'm of two minds about it. I preface this by saying it's just MY opinion, and as Fortuna said, I'm not going to begrudge people who do like them and want to use them, nor those who eschew them entirely. To each their own-- this place celebrates our creativity and whatever path we choose for it to take, neither can really be wrong.

That said. Some of these classes seem... actually useful in that perspective of 'they fill a niche that's required'. Monster, as it's just been established, exists to quantify legendary beasts who don't quite fit in any of the classes for good reason-- intelligent, but never mad, never wielding a weapon nor seeking revenge nor ruling over anything... There IS a niche for that that HAS gone unfilled. Same goes for Brawler-- though I'd point to the canon example of Beowulf. Shunted into the Berserker class without really being 'mad', but that's more about his personality than choice of combat style. There ARE and always will be corners that can be filled in with fan classes that the originals don't quite cover.

However, I also see the appeal of sticking to the canon and creating the justifications TO fit them into canon classes. Forcing yourself to come up with the necessary loopholes is an exercise in creativity yourself, and there's a point where it's kind of spoiling the idea of making a Servant in the first place when you have to come up with an entirely new class to make them work. Like AAM just said:

That also kind of removes the charm of making sheets though, where you have to use some creativity to design your Servant even if they may not have a perfect fit in any 'canon' Classes. It feels like having your cake and eating it by just making up a Class to fit things more easily in my opinion.

Take the one that seems to be popular and yet the one I have some of the most issue with-- Lover. If it's the ONLY class that works for someone... why are they a Servant? Why are they registered in the Throne of Heroes and why have they been summoned if they have absolutely no means by which to do anything other than feel an emotion? If they have combat capability, they fit into one of the other classes by default. If they don't, then there's little reason they're a Servant in the first place. It's a class that doesn't make sense. To be fair, I KNOW Avengers exist. But they're not JUST about 'vengeance as an emotion', they're... corrupted data due to this vengeance, dark spirits, and THAT'S where they draw their power from.

Some of the ones on that list ARE blatant joke classes. "Master" as a class, come on. Chef? Musician? Butler? These are just jobs. Not to mention 'Gammer'. Time Lord and Doctor are literally just DW references. 'Elemental' is a class of species in the Nasuverse-- Yu Mei-ren is an elemental and still an Assassin. Same goes for Celestial, which feels like it could be rolled into Ruler. 'Summoner' is literally just Caster already. Boxer is just Brawler but stupider sounding. And Alien is just lol. If these are used they can only be used in parody, satire and humour, which disqualifies them from these particular criticisms. But in reference to the ones trying to take it seriously...

The Servant container, in my eyes, is used to quantify how a Servant fights. With sword, polearm or bow, with mount, magic or deceit, with reckless abandon. The Extra Classes differ a little, but they still kind of make SENSE. That's why Lover doesn't do it for me-- because surely, on its own, there's nothing holding it together as a Servant class. The minute you start adding stuff to make the Servant actually useful, the chances are high that you qualify it for another class automatically. I ultimately just agree with Royd, who put it far more succinctly than I've managed to:

I feel like Striker/Brawler/whatever and Monster are really the only fan Classes to fill a niche that doesn't exist in canon. A lot of these others seem interesting but ultimately pretty extraneous.

That being said, there's some incredible writers here, and I'm sure that they'll find ways around my hangups to make incredible alt-class Servants. And when they do, I look forward to seeing them. I just don't care for most of these classes because they feel completely pointless save the two aforementioned ones, especially Lover and I can't grasp why that one's so popular. But oh well. As I opened with, it's not my place to stifle anyone's creativity, I'd be mortified to think I was doing that. It goes against the spirit of this place even more than fan classes do. It's a double-edged thing, I suppose. Ultimately, the only rule is: to each their own. Mine is staying away from them 'cause I think they're dumb. If you don't think they're dumb, I'm happy you don't and I hope you make something great with 'em. Look forward to seeing it.

(If I have to say ONE thing, people can come up with better class skills for Lover than 'Lover' and 'Beloved'. They don't even really fit the naming conventions OF class skills, and they don't make much sense AS skills. No shade at those who have done this, meant only in the spirit of constructive criticism. But it bothers me. Also why is Faker the only one with a Japanese character as its symbol, that doesn't make any damn sense. Give it the question mark thing at least.)

Also, I posted that fic thing right before this discussion and I don't think anybody saw it. (Either that or it was too awful to even give mention to. Jk.) Talk about bad timing on my part. Oops.

Why do I turn everything into a goddamn essay whenever I have an opinion on something? I hate me.

[BnEl15]

That also kind of removes the charm of making sheets though, where you have to use some creativity to design your Servant even if they may not have a perfect fit in any 'canon' Classes. It feels like having your cake and eating it by just making up a Class to fit things more easily in my opinion.

I feel like in some cases, adhering to the canon classes just limits your creativity instead. Sometimes you have figures that really just don't fit in at all, and shoehorning them to the existing classes would result in forcing certain Skills and NPs to fit the class. I like creative justifications like how fast punches can be comparable to blades or projectiles, but these justifications can be stretched too far in some cases, and it leaves me wondering what would happen if we give the author free rein over the sheet without being limited by canon.

Edit:
@realcasually: I just read the fic as well, wow. Gotta love how you managed to link your sheets with other existing sheets here, from Lucifer and the other angels, Newton and Hooke, and now this. It's like you just have a knack for understanding their characters well. The image of the grand ballroom aesthetic clashing with a warmonger's chaotic battlefield is amazing to see, and her doing "a dance of battle" is a loophole I didn't think of when I said weapons would fail to manifest within the ballroom (though idk if you did it intentionally or not). If one interprets their attack as another "dance" as opposed to a means to kill and destroy, the NP might not register it as a threat. Aside from that you really portrayed their parallels and differences well in that dialogue, so overall, nicely done.

[Justiciar Hux]

I don't begrudge people who use them, but when I see one of the extraneous fanon classes, I generally find myself somewhat exasperated; they're simply completely unneeded, and so, I see such a sheet and in my own internal marking system, there's an immediate reduction. Mind, that's only a general case; if the class is particularly uniquely done, and doesn't feel like it's a completely unnecessary addition to weakly justify something, then it does a big 180 and becomes a shining feature of the sheet.

If you make a new Class for any little thing, why bother including Class at all? The entire point of the exercise breaks down. If you find that the canonical Class containers are "limiting", then you simply haven't exercised the possibilities, and instead have chosen the path of folly by adding that which was never needed in the first place, like if da Vinci had painted the Mona Lisa's face a vivid lilac.

As the mighty Ultra Olga once said;

It is unfortunate that there are unnecessary things within the beautiful mural in front of me.

It's a shame that insects are mixed in the appetizers.

[realcasually]

I feel like in some cases, adhering to the canon classes just limits your creativity instead. Sometimes you have figures that really just don't fit in at all, and shoehorning them to the existing classes would result in forcing certain Skills and NPs to fit the class. I like creative justifications like how fast punches can be comparable to blades or projectiles, but these justifications can be stretched too far in some cases, and it leaves me wondering what would happen if we give the author free rein over the sheet without being limited by canon.

Edit:
@realcasually: I just read the fic as well, wow. Gotta love how you managed to link your sheets with other existing sheets here, from Lucifer and the other angels, Newton and Hooke, and now this. It's like you just have a knack for understanding their characters well. The image of the grand ballroom aesthetic clashing with a warmonger's chaotic battlefield is amazing to see, and her doing "a dance of battle" is a loophole I didn't think of when I said weapons would fail to manifest within the ballroom (though idk if you did it intentionally or not). If one interprets their attack as another "dance" as opposed to a means to kill and destroy, the NP might not register it as a threat. Aside from that you really portrayed their parallels and differences well in that dialogue, so overall, nicely done.

That's another good point. It ultimately just depends on a case-by-case basis, I suppose. Like I said, I can see the niches that Brawler/Striker and Monster fill. I haven't yet seen a Lover sheet that's sold me on the class being capable of standing on its own two feet. I'd like to believe it can be done, but I haven't yet. We'll see as they gain traction and more people create them. It really is just down to personal opinion.

Also, thank you! I... will freely admit, I might have glossed over the weapon detail. Mostly I just thought of it as Lu Bu shaking off the effects of the NP, becoming disconnected from its rules and able to summon her weapon again, but I was taking mild creative liberties. As for it being easy to relate my characters back to others, that's far more on the original authors for making such great and easily understandable characters in the first place.

[Morg van Destro]

Guess I'll put my two pieces in. Going Garamond!

Only fan Classes I've heard that I would use because I think they're good and fill a role I personally feel needs it. Monster, for the reasons people have already said. Brawler I can see being useful if I want to make Muhammad Ali or Bruce Lee, but honestly most mythical people that fought with their hands fit into Berserker or used some other form of weapon, so it'd mostly be reserved to more modern Servants. Lover is one I will actually whole heartedly defend because there are many people who wouldn't fit into any other Class very effectively, such as how I've struggled for a Class to put Guinevere because, while some things portray her with magical powers, that's not the case in Fate lore, but just saying she gets them from the misinterpretations and additions of people, while working with how Servants are formed, just didn't feel right to me, but Lover gives me the chance to portray her and give her Skills that can emphasize the more well known and consistent parts of her, as I see Lover as a Class that typically avoids fighting for the most part as with my Beatrice.

And... that's it, really. I honestly haven't seen any other ones that spark my interest or I feel do anything worth noting.
I understand people's positions that they can be unneeded or only exist to fill specifics niches or even that they just give the creator an excuse to differentiate themselves from the Classes they would normally be, and I can wholeheartedly agree with that in most cases. Still, while I personally won't be making a Class anytime soon, and besides, Gunner canonly is a extra Class that exists for modern day servants, so getting on some fan Classes for doing niches kind of holds less water for me.

I need to get some sleep. I got a Monster in mind for my next Arthurian, and I'm getting started on him tomorrow. First person that can guess his identity gets... I don't know. A kiss? A hug? I got long arms, so I give good hugs. Hugging machines.
...I'm very tired.

[Anju Addams]

I am doing Alter Ego Santa Jackie.

I'm in a different time zone so reply is late (?), but Avenger Sherlock Jack.

[Morg van Destro]

That's another good point. It ultimately just depends on a case-by-case basis, I suppose. Like I said, I can see the niches that Brawler/Striker and Monster fill. I haven't yet seen a Lover sheet that's sold me on the class being capable of standing on its own two feet. I'd like to believe it can be done, but I haven't yet. We'll see as they gain traction and more people create them. It really is just down to personal opinion.

Sometimes the best way to see how it can be done is to do it yourself.

- - - Updated - - -

Avenger Sherlock vs. Alter-Ego Santa. This'll be interesting.

[Anju Addams]

Sometimes the best way to see how it can be done is to do it yourself.

- - - Updated - - -

Avenger Sherlock vs. Alter-Ego Santa. This'll be interesting.

It's pretty funny in that I have an Alter Ego Santa Jack somewhere as well. Thank God, I didn't decide to remake. Seems me and Lambda-Nu are on the same page though...

[realcasually]

Sometimes the best way to see how it can be done is to do it yourself.

For once, this is one I'm not going to rise to. It's just not a class that interests me. But this debate could go around in circles forever. I'm gonna leave it as "not my cup of tea but neither is spoiling anybody's fun", and I'll give critiques on a case-by-case basis if they're asked for for a sheet.

I WILL go back to working on my next sheet for a while. You'll be happy to hear there's an incoming Arthurian, Morg. Why do all my sheets end up feeling aimed at someone in particular, lately? Guess that's what happens when people seem to claim these little niches. Oh well. It motivates me.

[DelRey]

Lively discussion here. In the end each their own. Execution of the sheet itself matters more than the mere existence of a class container. Make all beasts a Monster or a Rider, what makes the sheet unique is the presentation and not the class container.

I dont bother to link the quote of you cas, because i am on mobile rn but i think there was a flaw in your argument. You argued that if someone didnt fit the bill of a class, they would not be recorded in the throne? To my knowledge that is incorrect. I heard that people were recorded as Servants without classes and then when the Grail War System was created, the concept of classes evolved. So there are a bunch of records in the throne, but the functions that were put on top of them did not hit all Servants and were duds. With certain Extra Classes more and more of them were finally fit.
That is how and why imagine it is so hard to come up with new classes. The classes are well defined enough nowadays that creating a function that hits the very special outliers seems very hard

[realcasually]

Lively discussion here. In the end each their own. Execution of the sheet itself matters more than the mere existence of a class container. Make all beasts a Monster or a Rider, what makes the sheet unique is the presentation and not the class container.

I dont bother to link the quote of you cas, because i am on mobile rn but i think there was a flaw in your argument. You argued that if someone didnt fit the bill of a class, they would not be recorded in the throne? To my knowledge that is incorrect. I heard that people were recorded as Servants without classes and then when the Grail War System was created, the concept of classes evolved. So there are a bunch of records in the throne, but the functions that were put on top of them did not hit all Servants and were duds. With certain Extra Classes more and more of them were finally fit.
That is how and why imagine it is so hard to come up with new classes. The classes are well defined enough nowadays that creating a function that hits the very special outliers seems very hard

That's a fair point. I was more so thinking it was like... What is the point of a "Lover"? Why is that a servant desirable to summon for anyone? Why is 'you loved or were loved' worth calling on as a hero from the past to fight for you? But whatever. I see this going on forever if I keep trying to defend it. I agree with what you said first-- the class doesn't make the sheet, the sheet makes the class. I just think it'll take a lot more work to 'make' it when using one of these fanon classes because there's a lot more you have ​to 'make'.

[Kabalisto Koga]

Lively discussion here. In the end each their own. Execution of the sheet itself matters more than the mere existence of a class container. Make all beasts a Monster or a Rider, what makes the sheet unique is the presentation and not the class container.

I dont bother to link the quote of you cas, because i am on mobile rn but i think there was a flaw in your argument. You argued that if someone didnt fit the bill of a class, they would not be recorded in the throne? To my knowledge that is incorrect. I heard that people were recorded as Servants without classes and then when the Grail War System was created, the concept of classes evolved. So there are a bunch of records in the throne, but the functions that were put on top of them did not hit all Servants and were duds. With certain Extra Classes more and more of them were finally fit.
That is how and why imagine it is so hard to come up with new classes. The classes are well defined enough nowadays that creating a function that hits the very special outliers seems very hard

Well i think here is that The THrone of the Heros existed far before the Grailwar Ritual and that after the creation ofthe Servant System the Heroic Spirits became summonable ,and that the Faker class that was created by Kurou Adashino was a case where a additionally class as add through the work of a Mage similar with Avenger where the Einzberns made fine Tuning to their System ?


but that remembers me on a Questionn would the original Heroic Spirit be stronger then the Servant Bunrei ? i know that they are in this state almost un summonable but in my Story appears a Heroic Spirit as passive figure but i am curious About the answer . like a Heroic Spirit has all abbilliites of heir Live ,Right ?