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Thread: Fate/Grand Order Story and Lore (CONTAINS SPOILERS)

  1. #71901
    The Long-Forgotten Sight Rafflesiac's Avatar
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    Whoa there, that implies that those still matter in this Garden of U-Olga.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    canon finish apo vol 3

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    不明 fumei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    Honestly, this is a lot and the only thought I can produce at the moment is "Doesn't the Ama-no-sakahoko sound like a Texture pin?".
    I was thinking that too during Ryoma's talk with Zako, and when he snapped it in half without effort all I could think was "should texture pins really break that easily...? That seems unsafe"
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcjon01 View Post
    Ugh cokesakto no no no
    Quote Originally Posted by Neir View Post
    your ability to be wrong about literally everything you post is truly astounding. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, but you haven't been right once.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kateikyo View Post
    The gay pics were the most entertaining thing going on in this discussion.

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    Best old man Oz1337's Avatar
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    I wouldn't be surprised if Kenkeichi went with the power of love can achieve anything for this one.
    Last edited by Oz1337; November 22nd, 2021 at 07:34 PM.

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    世はまさにパンテオン Comun's Avatar
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    It doesn't feel out of place. Heaven's Feel is super Power of Love-fueled.

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    هههههههههههههههههههه Kamera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    Honestly, this is a lot and the only thought I can produce at the moment is "Doesn't the Ama-no-sakahoko sound like a Texture pin?".
    It should be, but as with other world pillars, in TM it will never be as relevant as Rhongomyniad.

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    虚無の境:意識 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fumei View Post
    Anyway, every appearance has been difference now, and Ryoma's latest appearance with it has like 3 or 4 different effects that all seem really different, so I don't know what to really think about this thing anymore. This is on top of Erice's profile literally mentioning that her spear is a replica of Ame-no-Nuhoko (天沼矛) which has the exact same description IRL as Ama-no-Sakahoko, so does that mean that one's the "original" spear that created the landmasses and all these other ones are just different, weird replicas? Who knows.
    It is similar case to the Kusanagi and the Tamamo Shizuishi having different names and appearances, even effects (see Ibuki's bond CE for Kusanagi). It has multiple "versions", or "bunreis" of the original weapon to be exact. Fate/Extra mats called the Yata mirror as bunrei of Tamamo's mirror, implying these divine weapons can also have their own soul (like the spear speaks to Ryouma) which makes perfect sense since Izanagi's sword Ama no Ohabari literally became a god who guards the Ama-no-Iwato cave, makes sense for his spear to also became a god and produce bunreis.
    Quote Originally Posted by fumei View Post
    I was thinking that too during Ryoma's talk with Zako, and when he snapped it in half without effort all I could think was "should texture pins really break that easily...? That seems unsafe"
    For the most part, it's either symbolism of Ryouma's extremely strong will, or because it is a replica in the first place. And since it is not an actual spear, it's probably a ceremonial artifact. Might also be a test of the weapon itself to gauge Ryouma's will.

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  8. #71908
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fumei View Post
    I was thinking about this the other day as well.

    In IRL myth, and as I'm sure has been referenced in Fate at some point as well, Ama-no-Sakahoko (天逆鉾) was the spear used by Izanagi and Izanami to churn the oceans and create the land that would become Japan. This is the spear that is stuck in Takachiho, which is also referenced in FGO by that one bond CE (Ryoma's?). Via this bond CE, among other things, we know this is also the spear which imprisoned Oryou on the same mountain until Ryoma freed her.

    Then Erice introduced the Ame-no-Sakahoko (天遡鉾). The big difference in name here is that 逆 means "reverse/inverse" which gives 天逆鉾 a literal name of like "spear of inversed heaven", while 遡 means "to retrace", so a literal name would be like "spear of retracing heaven". This is actually reflected in Erice's usage of her NP since it's said to "churn spacetime" and then return "all structures, matter, meaning, and fate to primordial chaos", acting as a "reverse flow of entropy from the netherworld". This basically sounds like the exact opposite of what the gods did with their original spear, so despite sharing the same name, I guess the fact that this is a replica lets it have this different function.

    The spear new!Ryoma uses in the event is indeed the same Ama-no-Sakahoko, given with the kanji 天逆鉾. This makes sense, since it's the same spear as Rider!Ryoma encounter, however, they kept throwing out entirely new effects for the spear pretty much every time it came up. One time when he uses it he says that being stabbed by this spear results in an "inversion of existence", causing a "divergence from the world" (存在の反転、世界からの乖離). Sounds kinda like how Erice's replica works, so good enough. Then they said that when it fell from heaven and struck Oryou, it "sewed her to the land". This is later shown to also be very literal, but in a more conceptual interpretation I guess you could think of it like if she was really an existence that once belonged to heaven, and it's inversed, then she's now barred from heaven?
    In the last chapter today, during the reunion scene, the unnamed god mentions that while the spear pinned Oryou to the land when it fell, there's more to it. It's "the residue of the Age of Gods that fell from the heavens" (天逆鉾は天より降り立った神代の残滓), But even that's not its true purpose.
    It was never meant to destroy evil, and it's not even really a spear to begin with (その鉾の本来の力は魔をうち滅ぼすことではない。 いや、そもそも鉾ですらない). It is actually a "token of atonement" for the malformity that was cast out long ago, so that it may return to the heavens as a new god (天より逆落ちたるは、かの異形を 新しき神として天へと迎えんがため、遥か昔に異形として忌み、 天より流した我の贖罪の印). By using the spear, Ryoma will cause Oryou to be "reborn as a new god, or rather, his guardian" (今こそまつろわぬ異形は新しき神、 いや、おまえの守護者として新生せん) and likewise he himself may call himself a god (そして新たなる神の名を名乗るがいい).

    There's some similar stuff about how the spear was sent to Earth so that someone could lead mankind closer to gods and whatnot, but this is said by Amanozako imitating the spear so probably best not to put too much weight to it.

    Anyway, every appearance has been difference now, and Ryoma's latest appearance with it has like 3 or 4 different effects that all seem really different, so I don't know what to really think about this thing anymore. This is on top of Erice's profile literally mentioning that her spear is a replica of Ame-no-Nuhoko (天沼矛) which has the exact same description IRL as Ama-no-Sakahoko, so does that mean that one's the "original" spear that created the landmasses and all these other ones are just different, weird replicas? Who knows.
    So is the Inverted Spear of Heaven from JuJutsu Kaisen a reference to the same weapon? Just had that thought upon reading this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  9. #71909
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six OnesFleetingGlory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragolord09 View Post
    So... Rider Ryouma has Oryou as his NP, but not the spear. Lancer Ryouma has the spear, Amasakahoko, but no Oryou with him. Meanwhile, this is a Lancer who has (super) Oryou by his side. The best of both worlds.

    It's almost like a Double Summon, but not quite, since it's restricted to Cavalry.



  10. #71910
    世はまさにパンテオン Comun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    So is the Inverted Spear of Heaven from JuJutsu Kaisen a reference to the same weapon? Just had that thought upon reading this.
    Yes, Touji uses Ryouma’s version.
    Last edited by Comun; November 23rd, 2021 at 10:41 AM.

  11. #71911
    other side of Red Garden AmADo VII's Avatar
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    just to confirm, Oryou's father is Izanagi isn't it?

  12. #71912
    虚無の境:意識 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmADo VII View Post
    just to confirm, Oryou's father is Izanagi isn't it?
    Depends on which theory you believe.

    There are several lines of theories floating around rn. One is that Oryou is probably Hiruko - the first child of Izanagi and Izanami who got cast down from heaven, in which case then yes. However it doesn't make sense chronologically and mythically, especially with the whole black and white snake myth. Another is that she is the Shirohebi goddess, and the most recent one based on her mentioning Wadatsumi is that she is the daughter of Watatsumi Omikami, aka Ryuujin - dragon god of the deep sea, or she herself is the Watatsumi Omikami, as Watatsumi was born from Izanagi washing himself upon returning from his trip to the underworld, which also makes her his daughter in a sense. I'm more into the Wadatsumi theory tho, because I noticed Genshin Impact depicted Watatsumi Omikami as a gigantic white snake in which I don't think they did that randomly but inspired by the same myth of white snakes being considered gods (or the best forms of dragons)

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    The Long-Forgotten Sight Rafflesiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    Yes, Toujou uses Ryouma’s version.
    *Toji
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    canon finish apo vol 3

  14. #71914
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Kelp24's Avatar
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    Well, about the pins being breakable, didn't Flat urge Gray to break Rhongo so the texture of AoM can be unpinned?

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    世はまさにパンテオン Comun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafflesiac View Post
    *Toji
    Danganronpa poisoned my autocorrect.

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    不明 fumei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnesFleetingGlory View Post
    So... Rider Ryouma has Oryou as his NP, but not the spear. Lancer Ryouma has the spear, Amasakahoko, but no Oryou with him. Meanwhile, this is a Lancer who has (super) Oryou by his side. The best of both worlds.

    It's almost like a Double Summon, but not quite, since it's restricted to Cavalry.
    It's sort of a nice mirror to what Maou is, in a way at least. His first ascension is regular Ryoma, second one is the what-if from him not dying at Omiya, and the third is a super-version that overpowers anything else but can only exist because of these insane circumstances and all. And then Rider Ryoma will just be forgotten as the CG.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcjon01 View Post
    Ugh cokesakto no no no
    Quote Originally Posted by Neir View Post
    your ability to be wrong about literally everything you post is truly astounding. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, but you haven't been right once.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kateikyo View Post
    The gay pics were the most entertaining thing going on in this discussion.

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    Lord Barthomeloi
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    هههههههههههههههههههه Kamera's Avatar
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    Thanks for the TL. Funny that her bond profiles are locked behind story nodes but the Bond CE literally spoils everything.

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    祖 Ancestor NMR-3's Avatar
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    Apparently Chiron's new interlude is about him being a worse teacher compared to Scathach and Hogen. If that is true, that's really stupid.
    The Adventure of the Velvet Room (Sherlock Holmes/Persona) (SB, FFN, AO3)

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