Grand Unified Theory: CHALDEA

[madarra]

Serious Light (I know it's likely Sirius, but this HP reference is so stupid I feel cringe to type it every time)

im sorry Harry potter broke you so bad... its also a star named after Orion`s dog.

[TresserT]

I interpreted what Rasputin said as meaning "we don't need to do anything to stop them, we can just sit back and let their foolishness do it for us". That doesn't mean they're not responsible for this, it just means they're taking the lazy approach to dealing with us now.

Anyone capable of being a Master at all surviving was a lucky coincidence- what would've happened if none of the survivors were Master candidates? We were literally the only Master not there, and that was due to annoying Olga. Seems like a pretty damn unlikely circumstance to bet on if you ask me, and an even less likely one to count on the survivor actually succeeding. And the fact that he knew there were seven Singularities implies that he knew Goetia would interfere with him and by extension would have known or had reason to believe that Chaldea would be attacked as a result.

The lucky coincidence was us surviving. That was lucky. I'm not denying that. But I don't think Marisbury planned for Chaldea to be blown up by Lev, is what I'm saying. Had Lev succeeded, Marisbury's plan would have been over then and there. I don't think Marisbury made continegncies for his whole organization being blown up from the inside.

I think Lev blowing up Chaldea was a legitimate, unforseen setback. But once enough of Chaldea survived to defeat Goetia, everything was a matter of course. We just completed our duties as Chaldea staff and everything worked out according to his plan despite the setback. If Chaldea exists in some capacity, it doesn't really take any more coincidences for them to destroy Goetia and preserve the Human Order.

[Sath]

Daybit said that as soon as Marisbury activated CHALDEAS for real, it was too late to stop his plans.

For me this means CHALDEAS can't be acting against his interests because by design it is going to be forced to carry out his plan then. And the Alien God faction answer to the Alien World/CHALDEAS.

It doesn't make much sense for it to be inevitable that CHALDEAS completes the plan, with it also being the case that CHALDEAS futilely opposes the plan - whilst at the same time opposing all the people that can stop it.

It's been spelled out that Chaldea does not want to help Marisbury's plan happen and the Alien World faction are still opposed to Chaldea, whilst CHALDEAS being active means the plan will move forwards. What is this, I want to have the cake and eat it?

Someone has to be on Marisbury's side other than an unwitting Chaldea, because Chaldea are no longer clueless pawns.

Chaldea were not capable of clearing the Lostbelts by themselves, and the only external influences have been apostles and 'Romani.' If the LBs were an essential component to stopping Marisbury you'd think Olga would make a real effort to keep one alive/destroy Chaldea. And if Olga herself was AW's trump card then err, Kirei seems very nonplussed by her demise.

I get the idea that LBs = roadblock, ergo AW must be trying to stop Marisbury, but literally no one in that faction is actually trying to prevent that from coming to pass. There has to be some kind of enduring mastermind otherwise there's no climactic video game payoff for Antarctica+Fuyuki, and the whole "bleaching is a murder mystery" would amount to nothing if it's an automated function CHALDEAS didn't want to activate.

If it were so simple I don't think the priestess would be trying to A. Obscure the truth (erase area 51) B. Kill the Anastasia fantasy tree.

[madarra]

also with the idea of hiding chaldeas? 13.8 bililon light years away. i guess Sirius got used for its title of "brightest star in the nights sky", the strongest flashlight observing Earth i guess

[TresserT]

For me this means CHALDEAS can't be acting against his interests because by design it is going to be forced to carry out his plan then. And the Alien God faction answer to the Alien World/CHALDEAS.

It doesn't make much sense for it to be inevitable that CHALDEAS completes the plan, with it also being the case that CHALDEAS futilely opposes the plan - whilst at the same time opposing all the people that can stop it.

I think this is where Olga comes in. I think the whole Cosmos in the Lostbelt arc is just one big obstacle to Marisbury's plan, and it all happened because Olga got unexpectedly dumped into CHALDEAS. Had that not occured, I think the plan would have gone way more smoothly. Maybe Marisbury taking on the role of the will of the planet instead? I'm not confident about that bit.

But while several parties want to prevent Marisbury's plan, they all have different methods of doing so and different side goals. I think Olga wants to preserve CHALDEAS, while Daybit is all for destroying it if it means preventing Marisbury's plan. (I also don't think Olga is really aware of what she's doing per se).

[OnesFleetingGlory]

For me this means CHALDEAS can't be acting against his interests because by design it is going to be forced to carry out his plan then. And the Alien God faction answer to the Alien World/CHALDEAS.

It doesn't make much sense for it to be inevitable that CHALDEAS completes the plan, with it also being the case that CHALDEAS futilely opposes the plan - whilst at the same time opposing all the people that can stop it.

All that because Olga's flung into it. Lev really caused the one in a million chance that could derail it, and unknowingly at that.

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sniped

[sentence]

im sorry Harry potter broke you so bad... its also a star named after Orion`s dog.

Harry Potter has a villain named Sirius Black
There we have Sirius Light

Seems like obvious reference for me, and what kind of the light a dog could have had? Was that a divine dog?

[OnesFleetingGlory]

The 'dog' is a star, also it has one heck of a shine.

[GhostKutenaiabi]

Harry Potter has a villain named Sirius Black
There we have Sirius Light

Seems like obvious reference for me, and what kind of the light a dog could have had? Was that a divine dog?

Feels like a stretch to me, personally.

[sentence]

To be fair, there's a more well-known Sirius outside of HP community.

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Fits with the whole Astromancy theme as well.

I see, so it is also a star? Then this name makes more sense.

[Petrikow]

I think Marisbury and CHALDEAS are working toward the same goal, ultimately. Obviously the reason why there were Apostles assigned to both the Crypters and Chaldea is because they needed both of these parties to act in the best interests of CHALDEAS. Notice how the Crypter-side Apostles only appear to be helping them at first glance. Muramasa's sole existence is just to fuck over Kirschtaria, and Douman exists only to screw with the Lostbelts (in fact, this puts everything he did in India in new light). Kotomine appears to first be helpful, but he's obviously just stringing them along.

To me, these aren't interesting questions. The question is more about Olga, and isn't it always about Olga? Personally, I think the "role" of the Alien God was something that was always an intended part of Marisbury's plan. What wasn't planned was for Olga to somehow be the Alien God. When you read her scenes in LB7, there is a constant conflict between her personality as Olga, and her function as the Alien God. The latter is her instincts that compels her to lead humanity towards a safe future, while the former is what makes her reject that purpose. There is a chance the Apostles (or most likely, just Kotomine) wasn't aware that Olga was such abnormality. He expected her to just destroy them, after all. But as it turns out, she became interested in humanity in a different way. After that, he just manipulated her into going to LB7, probably with the intent of at least getting her to get rid of the damn thing so Daybit's ploy couldn't succeed.

[InsertNameHere]

tl;dr As long as Chaldea is capable and willing to defend the Human Order, no matter how much of us survives, even if it's just a skeleton crew like it was in part 1, and as long as we remain ignorant to Marisbury's true goal, Marisbury's plan would work. It isn't a series of lucky coincidences that made this work. Chaldea was built entirely to make sure it would work out, and by preventing the Incineration and striving to restore PHH we've been toppling obstacles to Marisbury's plan.

And that doesn't rule out his continued intervention (albeit indirectly) in Part 2, nor does it actually mean the Lostbelts are even obstacles to said plan. So long as you can't prove that CHALDEAS is working against Marisbury's plan, you're just making the same assertion in different ways.

The lucky coincidence was us surviving. That was lucky. I'm not denying that. But I don't think Marisbury planned for Chaldea to be blown up by Lev, is what I'm saying. Had Lev succeeded, Marisbury's plan would have been over then and there. I don't think Marisbury made continegncies for his whole organization being blown up from the inside.

I think Lev blowing up Chaldea was a legitimate, unforseen setback. But once enough of Chaldea survived to defeat Goetia, everything was a matter of course. We just completed our duties as Chaldea staff and everything worked out according to his plan despite the setback. If Chaldea exists in some capacity, it doesn't really take any more coincidences for them to destroy Goetia and preserve the Human Order.

As I said, he had enough knowledge of Goetia and his plans to have suspected some sort of sabotage. Not necessarily from Lev exactly, but from somewhere. All the secrecy in the world can't protect you if a demon with near-omniscience is onto you, and the total lack of internal security measures is utterly baffling in that regard.

[madarra]

I see, so it is also a star? Then this name makes more sense.

yes its the brightest LIGHT(star) in the night sky, except the moon... supposedly

[InsertNameHere]

I think Marisbury and CHALDEAS are working toward the same goal, ultimately. Obviously the reason why there were Apostles assigned to both the Crypters and Chaldea is because they needed both of these parties to act in the best interests of CHALDEAS. Notice how the Crypter-side Apostles only appear to be helping them at first glance. Muramasa's sole existence is just to fuck over Kirschtaria, and Douman exists only to screw with the Lostbelts (in fact, this puts everything he did in India in new light). Kotomine appears to first be helpful, but he's obviously just stringing them along.

To me, these aren't interesting questions. The question is more about Olga, and isn't it always about Olga? Personally, I think the "role" of the Alien God was something that was always an intended part of Marisbury's plan. What wasn't planned was for Olga to somehow be the Alien God. When you read her scenes in LB7, there is a constant conflict between her personality as Olga, and her function as the Alien God. The latter is her instincts that compels her to lead humanity towards a safe future, while the former is what makes her reject that purpose. There is a chance the Apostles (or most likely, just Kotomine) wasn't aware that Olga was such abnormality. He expected her to just destroy them, after all. But as it turns out, she became interested in humanity in a different way. After that, he just manipulated her into going to LB7, probably with the intent of at least getting her to get rid of the damn thing so Daybit's ploy couldn't succeed.

For once, we agree. For all her prickliness, Olga is ultimately too nice to be the Alien God, and she would surely have turned on her father had she known about his true intentions. Even as the Alien God she first needed to be tortured into submission, have all her memories of her human life be erased, and then be provided with a cover story to justify her opposition of humanity. And I have to wonder one more thing- why did Lev disobey whatever order Goetia gave him about her to act on his emotions? At that matter, why didn't he kill us right away in Fuyuki when he had the chance?

I'd question if the future the Alien God part of her would lead them towards would be truly safe, though. Especially if the cosmic parasite theory is correct.

[sentence]

I think Marisbury and CHALDEAS are working toward the same goal, ultimately. Obviously the reason why there were Apostles assigned to both the Crypters and Chaldea is because they needed both of these parties to act in the best interests of CHALDEAS. Notice how the Crypter-side Apostles only appear to be helping them at first glance. Muramasa's sole existence is just to fuck over Kirschtaria, and Douman exists only to screw with the Lostbelts (in fact, this puts everything he did in India in new light). Kotomine appears to first be helpful, but he's obviously just stringing them along.

IIRC Priestess also was invloved in fucking up the LB4

[InsertNameHere]

IIRC Priestess also was invloved in fucking up the LB4

And she was the one who destroyed the Tree in LB1. Chaldea only managed to disable it.

[TresserT]

And that doesn't rule out his continued intervention (albeit indirectly) in Part 2, nor does it actually mean the Lostbelts are even obstacles to said plan. So long as you can't prove that CHALDEAS is working against Marisbury's plan, you're just making the same assertion in different ways.

It is blatantly stated that the destruction of the Lostbelts is necessary for Marisbury's Grand Order to be completed. You can interpret that multiple ways- maybe he had always intended for the Lostbelts to appear, because the act of destroying them is what's necessary. But I'm taking the simpler solution of, the Lostbelts are in his way, they need to be gone for his plan to continue. I don't have to prove that CHALDEAS is working against Marisbury, I just have to prove that it's both a simple solution and not impossible. If I could prove it beyond a reasonable doubt then it would be fact, not theory. But I do think, given the evidence, I've satisfied both the possibility of it and Occam's Razor.

The long and short is, Marisbury is going to destroy CHALDEAS and the cosmos with it. CHALDEAS, as a sentient planet (as all planets are), has self preservation and doesn't want this to happen. Olga, clearly something more than human since long ago, gets thrown into CHALDEAS, and CHALDEAS then makes use of her to inflitrate reality and prevent Marisbury's plan. The Apostles all act to bring Olga about, and beyond that they have no purpose (though some betray her). Wodime and Daybit both know what's going on and want to prevent Marisbury's plan from occuring. But where Olga wants to preserve CHALDEAS, Daybit wants to destroy it, and Wodime wants to create a god-like mankind.

By the end of LB prologue Marisbury's plan has already been thwarted and it's only a question of what comes after. Wodime's god-like future, Olga's "new humanity" future, or Daybit's nuclear destruction of Earth future (Daybit only goes with this option because he believes Wodime and Olga will fail). Chaldea, unintentionally by means of trying to save PHH, defeats each of these factions and thus gives Marisbury's plan another chance.

I'm not trying to prove I'm correct. I'm trying to prove that there's evidence support it and nothing that contradicts it. I think I've done that sufficiently?

[Sath]

I think Marisbury and CHALDEAS are working toward the same goal, ultimately. Obviously the reason why there were Apostles assigned to both the Crypters and Chaldea is because they needed both of these parties to act in the best interests of CHALDEAS. Notice how the Crypter-side Apostles only appear to be helping them at first glance. Muramasa's sole existence is just to fuck over Kirschtaria, and Douman exists only to screw with the Lostbelts (in fact, this puts everything he did in India in new light). Kotomine appears to first be helpful, but he's obviously just stringing them along.

To me, these aren't interesting questions. The question is more about Olga, and isn't it always about Olga? Personally, I think the "role" of the Alien God was something that was always an intended part of Marisbury's plan. What wasn't planned was for Olga to somehow be the Alien God. When you read her scenes in LB7, there is a constant conflict between her personality as Olga, and her function as the Alien God. The latter is her instincts that compels her to lead humanity towards a safe future, while the former is what makes her reject that purpose. There is a chance the Apostles (or most likely, just Kotomine) wasn't aware that Olga was such abnormality. He expected her to just destroy them, after all. But as it turns out, she became interested in humanity in a different way. After that, he just manipulated her into going to LB7, probably with the intent of at least getting her to get rid of the damn thing so Daybit's ploy couldn't succeed.

This makes sense to me and is how I was reading it. The apostles have been sent out to manipulate all acting parties, as far back as part 1 with Sherlock/likely Dantes.

The apostles have actively acted against the Lostbelts at every turn. Maybe the LBs really were only there to birth an Alien God character - although I wonder how important that really is when Olga is ultimately disposable. This said, the ritual to create her is repeatable going by Douman's attempt.

Olga I think will remain a mystery even after she is brought back as an antagonist, and likely has a teary farewell in her Servant form at the battle's end. As you say RE: young Olga, her intended role is likely part of the root mystery of CHALDEAS/Fuyuki singularity and to be saved for the finale or penultimate chapter.

Regarding the Crypters, I've always thought the "war" between the LBs was just a lie to keep them from cooperating together and reaching the truth. Priestess ensuring the truth stays buried suggests the truth is Marisbury's plan that had to be kept hush from even the world.
If it weren't any more obvious, the title of Crypter was devised by Marisbury and only told to Daybit. The voice that brings A team back says they will become Crypters. Bit too much of a coincidence that they will be the Alien God's Crypters, not Masters no?

[Reign]

This is exactly what happened. Daybit even says that this is exactly what happened, and Rasputin also says something implying it later.

Daybit says that the blank slate Earth was a plan concocted by Chaldea, and that Chaldea (and specifically the A team) was created to ensure the plan would occur. Da Vinci then says "so you're saying the real evil that should have been defeated was us all along?" And Daybit says "No, you really did save humanity from the incineration. From the perspective of saving the Humanity of 2017, you really were the best people for the job. You should be proud. You might have caused all this, but you were not the culprit". He says that we did everything perfectly- at least, in the sense that we answered every question correctly, like a test laid out by Marisbury.

And again, as long as someone from Chaldea ignorant of the truth survived and defeated Goetia, Marisbury's plan would have come to pass. You say happy coincidences, but for the most part Marisbury had no reason to worry. Don't think of it like "oh how lucky all this happened this way". Think of it as, Marisbury had a good plan. Lev tried to stop the plan by blowing up everyone in Chaldea, but he failed because he couldn't kill everyone. Since we survived, we were able to carry out Marisbury's plan and prevent the incineration of humanity.

Yes, it's lucky that someone survived. But as long as someone survived and was capable of defeating Goetia, Marisbury's plan would still work. That was really the only coincidence.

Galahad blaming Fujimaru for it in Moonlight Lostroom makes more sense now.

[InsertNameHere]

Galahad blaming Fujimaru for it in Moonlight Lostroom makes more sense now.

And literally all the other Heroic Spirits including the clairvoyant ones supporting us makes less sense.