Fate/Grand Order General Discussion (CONTAINS SPOILERS)

[Ratman]

I'm scared of grailing Salome actually, ST berserker could make stuff too easy. My prayers for ST Lancer were granted, but Gareth turned out to be pretty silly.

Jason feels pretty bad to use when you're underhyperoptimized though.

[asterism42]

You can play RPGs in a super defensive style if you want but it gets reeeeeeal boring after about half an hour

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But honestly to me your complaints just sound like 'other people are HAVING FUN WRONG'

[Sandstorm77]

I don't even get half of the arguments since i just mash together whichever servants i feel like using for any articular quest, so all this talk as if there's only very specific ways to play just goes over my head.

[Marros]

Honestly going this deep into game mechanics is funny to me, since the fact that I have to occasionally switch what set of max-level servants I'm using for class advantage and then actually pick my cards each turn is somehow using enough brainpower that I keep playing FGO unlike other mobage where I built full team of high level units that never changed and just Auto-battled my way through everything I cared enough to do until I realized i hadn't actually played the game in months and quit.

[Oz1337]

If we want to talk about game improvements, I have a few that I really want DW to touch:

- Improve DoT debuffs. Make each debuff different from each other in terms of what they do (like give an additional effect when at least one is on the ally/enemy), and don't make them do flat damage on the enemy (soft cap or hard cap it if there's an issue in balance).
- Make Bond CEs an equippable passive. Except for a few units, you're never going to equip a Bond CE over a normal CE due to the stat drop and the Bond CE effect being very weak. I want to go on quests with all my favorite units having the CE equipped without feeling I'm punishing myself from doing this.
- Let me lock which specific NP line I want to hear when using an NP.
- Improve daily quests.
- Improve daily quests. Worth saying it twice because this is still a big issue nowadays.
- Better performance in stages that have a lot of effects, there's still some lag even on a good device, case in point the previous Burning stage in the Guda Guda rerun event which was a lag fest.
- Add a filter in the Friend list so it only shows CEs you haven't unlocked yet, so it's easier to Bond/Valentine/Anniversary CE hunt (pure completionist issue here, I know).
- Improve the menu that shows the current buffs/debuffs on an ally/enemy. It's a pain to activate it when a mini-button would work perfectly fine, and it blocks the entire screen when it's on when it could be a miniscreen that doesn't block your view.
- Upgrades for Servants should happen more often, it's a big issue when there's still old Servants that don't have an NP upgrade when new Servants have gotten them. There's been many occasions in which the game had no content (like right now) which would have made a perfect opportunity to give us something to do.

[Ratman]

- Improve DoT debuffs. Make each debuff different from each other in terms of what they do (like give an additional effect when at least one is on the ally/enemy), and don't make them do flat damage on the enemy (soft cap or hard cap it if there's an issue in balance).

Yeah. Would it be really so bad to have a skill that just straight up smacks the enemy for 10k?

Make Bond CEs an equippable passive. Except for a few units, you're never going to equip a Bond CE over a normal CE due to the stat drop and the Bond CE effect being very weak. I want to go on quests with all my favorite units having the CE equipped without feeling I'm punishing myself from doing this.

Seeing what they did in Saloman, I suspect that LB7 or whatever the real endgame is will only allow you to field servants with Bond CE equipped. Whole story should be enough to kick a team or two to B10 just by playing it, so there won't be an excuse.

[bhl88]

With a 50% reduction, can I brute force Gawain with Fujino?
At level 90 with a +2000 HNS and 1500 Fous?

[Oz1337]

With a 50% reduction, can I brute force Gawain with Fujino?
At level 90 with a +2000 HNS and 1500 Fous?

Yes you can.



I know it's using a level 100 Fujino, but frankly Fujino is good enough to easily solo that quest even at level 80.

[Aozaki-desu]

Thing is arts chain, esp. aoe np arts chain creates a ton of crit stars despite starting with blue.

what would be reasonable and symmetric:
Buster: best damage, moderate stars, no NP
Arts: Best NP, moderate damage, no stars
Quick: Best stars, moderate NP, worst damage (still needs to do some I guess)

what we get
Buster: best damage, moderate critical stars, no NP
Arts: best NP gain, moderate damage, moderate crit stars
Quick: Best stars, moderate NP, worst damage

One of these is not like the others, one of these just doesn't belong.

if you think a few stars off an arts card is gamebreaking i have bad news for you

now, if you wanted to play one of these is not like the other game, thats how you should have done it

firstCardBonus = {0.5 if first card is a Buster card, 0 otherwise. No bonus to NPs}
firstCardBonus = {1 if Arts was first card, 0 otherwise. 0 if it's an NP card}
firstCardBonus = {20% if it's there, 0% otherwise. 0% for NPs}

[Pendant]

I just have to say that the game completely disagrees with you, vis-a-vis Arts being unable to generate critical stars. If they actually wanted to that to be the case I doubt they would have given a dedicated Arts support like CasGil an ability to generate more stars off of Arts attacks.

[manafusion]

I still don't get Ratman's miff about crit star generation on Arts by default, tbh. It's not like you're ever guaranteed a damage boost for the 1~2 stars you may get with your Arts card. Not to mention a typical setup requires at least 30 stars to have your main damage dealer get enough stars on the two cards that they have in the current turn's card draw for a decently high crit chance. It's not even guaranteed. Oh yeah, we also didn't talk about the no-carry-forward situation with stars, right? Unlike NP gen.

[Pendant]

I think he feels that it's the strongest standalone card type so in order to bring it into balance it shouldn't give any stars at all. But a typical Arts chain without any boosts is only going to give you like 0-2 critical stars anyway so it's really not moving the needle much at all.

And that Skadi is a bad way to balance Quick, which is fair enough, I suppose. Most Quick cards do give poor damage, poor NP generation, and even poor stars if you don't Quick chain due to low hit counts. Your Jacks, Melts, and Okitas notwithstanding whose Quicks do perform excellently, it is a problem for the card type.

[Ratman]

It has nothing to do with the mechanical results. It is not gamebreaking, but rather symptomatic of the game being broken and not well made, because there is this thread of barely noticeable increment that sticks out and makes me want to pull on it. It wouldn't have to exist in calculations but does, making the game unnecessarily bloated by its existence.

This is where it starts. It ends with things like the damage total is only resetting on turnly basis, which ends in overkill kicking in sooner than it's supposed to, and counting on more hits and cards that actually have overkill, thereby giving you more meter than you're supposed to get.

[manafusion]

It has nothing to do with the mechanical results. It is not gamebreaking, but rather symptomatic of the game being broken and not well made, because there is this thread of barely noticeable increment that sticks out and makes me want to pull on it. It wouldn't have to exist in calculations but does, making the game unnecessarily bloated by its existence.

This is where it starts. It ends with things like the damage total is only resetting on turnly basis, which ends in overkill kicking in sooner than it's supposed to, and counting on more hits and cards that actually have overkill, thereby giving you more meter than you're supposed to get.

But what makes you so sure that it's actually broken? Have you done the actual weighing of how impactful minor NP gen is on Buster over how impactful natural star gen is on Arts? Have you done the maths and the formula for the meta-gaming and non-meta-gaming aspects of it? Have you considered how much potential loss of damage you get for the invisible star weight system that adds additional values to random cards, thus making it far less predictable where how many stars hit which card?

I dunno. I don't think we can really talk about "this should be balanced this way" without first experiencing the situation. And you, me as well as everyone else has played enough to know that it don't matter. It just looks like it has some impact but it really doesn't. Sure, on a really lucky day, you could get your 10% crit chance to actually crit and do 2x more damage. But what're the odds it's on the card you want to use that turn and what're the odds that it critting is seen as a significant enough impact to shift the battlefield? The answer being "Rarely and Never". That's why, even back then, people still did BQA on their "solo bronze runs" for damage. They didn't take BAA because the crit stars that you could potentially get from it is so miniscule and the odds of critting are so low that even if it crits, it probably isn't significant enough compared to actually using the Quick card.

[Ratman]

Obviously I haven't done any calcs whatsover because contrary to how this conversation might make it seem, there's limits to my autism. But I kind of doubt DW does a lot of math, either.

[Sandstorm77]

I think he feels that it's the strongest standalone card type so in order to bring it into balance it shouldn't give any stars at all. But a typical Arts chain without any boosts is only going to give you like 0-2 critical stars anyway so it's really not moving the needle much at all.

And that Skadi is a bad way to balance Quick, which is fair enough, I suppose. Most Quick cards do give poor damage, poor NP generation, and even poor stars if you don't Quick chain due to low hit counts. Your Jacks, Melts, and Okitas notwithstanding whose Quicks do perform excellently, it is a problem for the card type.

The whole argument that arts is too good because arts has a bit of everything is also weird to me since it doesn’t seem to consider the timing of the payout which mana kinda alluded to with how crits stars doesn’t carry over. In an idealized ster is an instant damage payoff, quick is a payoff for the next turn, and arts is payoff on ? turns. Without all around consistency arts would be useless when servants get taken out so quickly.

[GDB]

So, do you then agree that Quick is worthless unless it is put on training wheels? Arts stands on its own and doesn't need to do damage, is not expected to do damage, building NP is enough. Buster smashes face, you're not looking for stars or NP there. But stargen is such a shitty specialization that you automatically expect Quick to do something else - do damage - to be worth your attention. And build a bit of NP, if possible. Am I right?

You generate NP to do damage.

You "smash face" through crits or NP. If you do neither, the damage is laughable by current standards.

Why are you trying to force Quick into this "needs a crutch" corner when all three types have the same goal?

Funnily enough, the health of the game is actually pretty good right now.

I'd have agreed with you if not for Arjuna Alter.

- Improve DoT debuffs. Make each debuff different from each other in terms of what they do (like give an additional effect when at least one is on the ally/enemy), and don't make them do flat damage on the enemy (soft cap or hard cap it if there's an issue in balance).

Yes please. It'd be easy too. Curse lowers their buff success/gives a buff a chance to fail. Burn lowers their attack slightly (hi Pokemon). Poison gets incrementally stronger/lowers their debuff resistance.

- Add a filter in the Friend list so it only shows CEs you haven't unlocked yet, so it's easier to Bond/Valentine/Anniversary CE hunt (pure completionist issue here, I know).

Good lord yes, please. Or even at MINIMUM the "mLB" filter that events have, but for normal quests.

[Aozaki-desu]

Arjuna Alter is not particularly gamebreaking though?
I mean he is bullshit strong if you happen to have $$$ NP and one or two lb kaleido's along with him

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but its not like he's meta defining or anything

[Oz1337]

He did a good job breaking the Gil/Ishtar Fest, pretty much most people's recommendation to beat some of the challenges were "Use Godjuna LOL".

I'm not sure how it escaped DW's mind that the Anti-Evil buff and that Buster Star Absorb that reaches the level of EAM was not a stupidly broken combination to give to a Berserker. And then they released Chen Gong to finish the job.

But then again they're the same ones who released Super Human Orion and his bullshit crits, so yeah...

[Zork Knight]

Welp, just got Divine Three-Legged Race to level 100.

Now to wait for a quest with a single enemy with lots of HP, no Break Bars, and no bullshit mechanics that would kill my 1 HP Hijikata