Originally Posted by Five_X
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
I know I'll get hated because it is from an anime/manga/lightnovel
But you guys can pretend that she is the Heroic Spirit that embodies the "concept" of Maou or something (kinda like how EMIYA is the heroic spirit of Shirou's ideals).
Servant Caster
True Name: Maou, The Demon King who searches for the other side of the hill.
Other Titles/Names: The Crimson Scholar, 43rd Demon King
Alignment: Lawful Good
Gender: Female
Eye Color: Red
Hair Color: Dark Red
Yuusha Left, Maou Right43rd supreme ruler of the Demon Realm who holds the title of Demon King. Even though she looks young, she is in fact over a hundred years old. Maou wished for the best outcome between both humans and demons. To serve this purpose she enlisted the help of what might be considered her arch-nemesis, the Hero (Yuusha). After a 'final battle' between the two she convinced him to join her cause, without a single attack levied and with neither party harmed. In order to complete her goals she joins Yuusha in acting in the Human territory. While there she disguised herself as a human noblewoman known as the Crimson Scholar, and shares her vast knowledge on such topics as economics and farming.
She comes from a clan of demons that prioritize knowledge. They reside in a hidden dimension called the Outer Library, which contains a vast archive of knowledge from various times and alternate universes. That place is where the Queen gains her range of knowledge.
The Crimson Scholar rapidly grew in popularity from both her radical ideas and beauty. She was viewed with distrust by the church and the central kingdoms, who brand her as a heretic out of fear that it would loosen its grasp over the countries helped by her. To ensure a temporary ceasefire between the Humans and Demons, the Queen disseminated rumors that her battle with the Hero indeed occurred as expected, resulting in his disappearance and her body becoming severely wounded. This provided her with extra time to complete her plans by leading her servants to believe that she cannot command them until her recuperation was completed.
Though an imposing and intelligent woman, she has shown a bit of a childish and comedic side. To appear more threatening, she wears a headband with a large set of horns. The Demon Queen has always held affections for the Hero and anticipated their meeting from the moment of his birth.
Her Wish is to view “The other side of the hill”, the world whose possibilities were not recorded in any of the universes that could be viewed from the Outer Library.
Parameters
Strength: E
Agility : E
Endurance: E
Magic: D
Luck: D
Noble Phantasm: A
Class Abilities
Territory Creation: B
At this level Creation of a Workshop is possible.
Item Construction: C +
At this rank even low-level mystic codes can be created, however do to her expertise in engineering Caster's true forte is in mundane technologies of high quality and ability even with shoddy available materials.
Personal Skills
Strength of the Demon Kings: A
One part of becoming the Demon King involves a transfer of emotion and power from the past Demon Kings in the Ancient Royal Tomb. By sacrificing her personality and accepting the influence of the past kings Caster can increase her aptitude for thaumaturgy, supplement her knowledge of the arcane arts with the accumulated insights of the past Demon Kings, increase her combat capabilities, and render her need for a master to provide prana nearly meaningless. Utilizing this skill is a one-way trip. It will permanently seal her Noble Phantasm, alter her personality to that of a vicious warlord who seeks only to destroy the human race, immediately cause all intelligent beings (including muggles) to be aware of her true form as the Demon King on sight, and causes her to entirely lose her status as a Heroic Spirit, instead becoming a Phantasmal Beast.
Caster's new-found thaumaturgical capabilities increase her MAG parameter by three ranks, and access to the equivalent of a B-rank in the Magecraft skill.
Caster's enhanced physical prowess and knowledge increase her STR, AGI, and END by three ranks each, and access to B-rank Eye of the Mind:False
Caster's enhanced aura as the ultimate demonic increases her prana production that she can stay in the world indefinitely even without a master or some alternative method of replenishing her prana.
Caster's new-found status as a Phantasmal Beast grants her A-rank Magic Resistance.
(Note to masters: Seriously, DON'T HAVE HER ACTIVATE THIS SKILL UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES! It is guaranteed to have the church's rep send all the other servants after you and your servant, will guaranteed get the magic association to bear its full force to eliminate you, and should they fail is highly likely to cause Counter Guardians to be brought to eliminate Caster as a threat to humanity.)
Denizen of the Outer Library: B
The Outer Library is a dimension akin to the realm of the fae, it exists simultaneously with but separately from the world. This particular realm has access to a form of scrying akin to a mass access to the second magic. All worlds that 'have been' can be viewed from this place, and due to her lifetime being spent predominantly within the confines of the Library studying, researching, and learning, Caster has knowledge of nearly all mundane and arcane subjects. Caster can be considered an expert in nearly all intellectual pursuits, granting her capabilities not unlike those who utilize Expert of Many Specializations. In particular she is exceptionally well versed in the areas of Military Tactics, Economics, Agriculture, Architecture, and Engineering.
Golden Rule: A+
As the King of the Demon realm Caster brings to bear a vast amount of resources and wealth. While the resources of the lord of half of the world is vast, added to this is access to nearly all the wealth in the Human half of the world do to her extremely good relations with the representative of the Merchants Association who have a near stranglehold on trade in the Human realm. Additionally she is favored is owed debts from many individual farm villages, the Winter Kingdom, and the new-sect of the Church of the Holy Spirit. Her resources are for all intents and purposes without limits, and it could be said that she all but owned the combined resources of both halves of the world. Where other Kings might have possessed all of the treasures, or ruled all of the kingdoms, she could be said to have all the wealth.
Noble Phantasm
Yuusha has become mine!
Rank: A
Anti-Personnel
By expending a significant portion of her limited prana reserves Caster can summon forth Yuusha: The Hero to aid her. If Saber has not been summoned in the war, then it is possible for caster to summon Yuusha forth and take up that container's slot in the war, doing so will drain her substantially of prana, but will allow Yuusha to remain as her servant for as long as she lives due to support from the grail keeping him anchored into the world. If she is not fortunate enough to be able to summon him as a proper servant in the war, she can still materialize him for a brief period of time, though doing so requires an immense amount of prana, and he will only be able to remain for at most an hour. Yuusha is himself a heroic spirit on the throne, capable of filling the saber and caster classes (though for obvious reasons she cannot summon him as a caster). Yuusha's capabilities as a servant are
Parameters: Str-B, Agi-B, End-B, Mag-B, Luk-B, NP-D Class Skills: Magic Resistance-B, Riding-C Personal Skills: Magecraft-A (he is capable of teleportation, and offensive spells with destructive force equivalent to an anti-army noble phantasm), Eye of the Mind:True-C, Charisma-A+
Noble Phantasms:
Shiro no Kenshi/Kuro Kishi
Rank: D
Anti-Personnel
Yuusha's Noble Phantasm is the ability to assume either of the two personas that he donned while serving Maou. When taking the form of the Shiro no Kenshi he appears as a skilled but non-descript swordsman, those who view him in combat without fighting him themselves wrongly estimate his parameters and skills to all be of two ranks lower than is actually the case, while under this guise his use of Magecraft is sealed. When taking the form of the Kuro Kishi he appears clad in a black demonic-looking plate-mail armor, to those both viewing him and facing him in combat his parameters all appear to be one rank higher than they actually are, while under this guise people will immediately peg him to be both evil and of demonic origins (though he isn't, so anything that would help against demons will be no better than it is against humans), and his Eye of the Mind: True skill is reduced by one rank. While acting as either the Shiro no Kenshi, or the Kuro Kishi Yuusha's true identity appears to be that of his facade to all methods of magical scrying and detection, though someone watching him may be able to deduce his identity separately.Yuusha can don either facade at will, though doing so expends a minor amount of prana, and those who SEE him change forms will obviously become suspicious and notice the change.
Last edited by firloz; May 15th, 2013 at 07:31 PM. Reason: Why does formatting never seem to work for me???
Golden Rule doesn't represent what you actually own, it represents the fact that the world is just going to throw money at you so that no matter what the situation is, you'll never lack it. I admit to not being overly familiar with the source material, but I don't recall Maou randomly getting wealth.
As well, I don't recall Yuusha being that good at leading armies. He was just so strong it didn't matter because he could win by himself.
Last edited by Siriel; May 15th, 2013 at 07:31 PM.
Hero's kind of bad at leading armies, what with being more of a solo/small squad type. :V
It's Female Knight that leads the armies.
pleasekinda like how EMIYA is the heroic spirit of Shirou's ideals
EMIYA is a fictional hero, discuss.
Skills/=/stats. And how Nasu uses it for the A rank is not necessarily the same as how he plans on using it for the lower ranks. Its seems that he intended thrown Gae Bolg to be more powerful than an A rank NP.
Last edited by BlackField; May 15th, 2013 at 09:28 PM.
Why didn't you just post this in the other Servant thread?
Better yet, why not edit the OP and put the link there?
Look at the OP more carefully.
See, it's so unnoticeable it doesn't serve any function. Put it on the top of the post and we'll be making progress. boy i'm embarassed
I'm writing up a profile, but I'm kinda stumped right at the start.
Where would you put Jacob a.k.a. Israel a.k.a. the guy who won the wrestling match with God as far as Servant Class goes?
Well, I can see a couple of possibilities looking at his story on ye olde Wikipedia. My first thought was he could be a Lancer with Caster attributes like Cu, the Lance in this case being his Shepherd's Crook from the time he spent in exile. This would allow him to have good physical stats for wrasslin'. The second thought was he could just be a Caster with a Noble Phantasm that super changes his physical stats for wrestling and then leaves him with a limp after he uses it. Third idea would be for him to be Archer inheriting his brother's hunting skills with a Bow since he started off as a weasely type before his exile but then had to rough it in the fields for 14 years after he ran off and him learning how to be a tough guy in the intervening years is an Nasu-esque acceptable break from the text.
Distant fourth would be for him to be Saber and you just make up a sword for him Nero style.
Cadmus, The Curse of the Dragon
Lancer
Alignment: Neutral Good.
STR: B MGI: A END: C LCK: D AGI: A NP: A Background:
STR: A MGI: A END: B+ LCK: D AGI: A+ NP: A
In Search of Europa
Spoiler:
The Sacred Dragon
Spoiler:
One Final Regret
Spoiler:
Class and Personal Skills:
Magic Resistance: A
It grants protection against magical effects. At this level it cancels spells of A-Rank or below. In practice, the Servant is untouchable to modern Magi.
Bravery: A+
The ability to negate mental interference such as pressure, confusion and fascination. A bonus effect of increasing melee damage.
According to one particular version of Cadmus’ legend reported by Nonnus of Panopolis, during the hero’s search for his lost sister, Cadmus was recruited by Zeus against the giant Typhoeus.
Typhoeus was the last of Gaia’s sons, born with the purpose of inflicting vengeance upon Zeus (who previously overthrew the other sons of Gaia, Cronus, the Titans and the giants). He was the largest and most fearsome of all creatures; his human upper half reached as high as the stars, and his hands reached east and west; instead of a human head, a hundred dragon heads erupted from his neck and shoulders and is bottom half consisted of gigantic viper coils, while fire flashed from his eyes. At the sight of such a monstrous creature, the whole pantheon of the Olympian gods flew to Egypt from the terror, disguising themselves as animals.
At the beginning, Typhoeus did in fact manage to defeat Zeus and steal his tendons. But here’s where Cadmus’ part starts: he managed to play his lyre in front of such a terrifying being without fear, and his music was so good that he tricked the monster into giving him the stolen sinews in order to make another instrument, and when the hero had them in his hands, he gave them back to the King of the Gods, who finally managed to defeat the monster.
According to this version, it was at the end of this adventure that Cadmus took Harmonia as his wife.
Divine Words: B
The power to activate Thaumaturgy without the use of Magic Circuits. The language of the Age of Gods, back when words played a heavy role in spellcasting. As such, it is power long lost by modern magi.
According to the tradition, Cadmus was the hero who brought the original 22 letters of the Phoenician alphabet to the West. The Greeks later adapted these letters (who at the time didn’t include vowels, for example) to form their own alphabet. These improved Divine Words were later on famously used by the greatest magi and witches of Ancient Greece, after having improved them even more, and turning them into one of the highest forms of magical language.
This being said however, Cadmus doesn’t have much attitude as a magus to begin with (thus excluding him from the Caster class), therefore he doesn’t use this competence of his as if he were one. He employs a simple and modest use… although this doesn’t mean an ineffective one.
Prana Burst: A
The capacity of infusing one's weapons and body with magical energy and instantly expelling it. Simply put, recreating the effect of a jet burst by expending large amounts of prana. At this level, a normal weapon that is not on the level of a divine mystery can be destroyed in one blow. Raises defense in several times.
Monstrous Strength: C
An ability possessed by monsters and beasts, temporary boost of the Strength parameter by one rank for a time limit determined by the ranking of this skill.
A skill naturally born from his Noble Phantasm, Body of the Dragon. The more Cadmus turns into the counterpart of the Ismenian Dragon, the stronger he gets. However, at the same time, the instinct of the reptile grows similarly stronger, and he starts to lose the grip on higher cognitive functions.
Noble Phantasms:
Τό Διάτορον ΔόρυTo Diatoron Doru
Dragon-Slaying Spear
Rank: B+
Type: Anti-Unit
The demonic spear used by Cadmus to kill the Ismenian Dragon, according to the version reported by Ovid in his work, the Metamorphoses.
In the legend, at first Cadmus tries to smash the dragon with a huge rock (which is described to have the force to destroy towers) but to no avail, for the impact is nullified by the armor-like scales of the dragon’s skin. Then Cadmus throws a javelin, which manages to pierce the impenetrable hide. Writhing in pain, the dragon bends its head over to its back to see the wound, bites the deep-sunk shaft, and straining it from side to side he manages to wrench the shaft out – but the actual iron point of the javelin remains stuck within the body. Cadmus must now face the enraged dragon, even more maddened by the agony of the wound: at this point he steps back, keeping the venomous fangs at distance with the point of his other spear, managing to inflict only a light wound to the mouth of the dragon, who is furiously coiling and twisting his body, destroying the surrounding woods.
The frenzied dragon keeps avoiding any deep wound or serious damage, but at this point Cadmus sees the right moment and strikes with all of his strenght, completely penetrating the dragon’s gullet and beyond, nailing the monster’s body to an oak tree behind it. The weight of the body bends the tree as the dragon struggles in the agonies of death.
But this is not the end of it… as he contemplates his dead foe, Cadmus hears an ominous voice around him: “Son of Agenor, why do you stare at the Serpent you have slain? You too shall be a Snake and stared at”.
This account shows how good is Cadmus with throwing weapons and spears. The spear thus became a Noble Phantasm with unparalled piercing power that defies divine protection (although in the long run this didn’t do much good to the hero, who was cursed by such killing).
As a digression, it would be interesting if the origin of Cadmus’ weapons was from Samothrace, residence of the Cabeiri gods. These gods are sometimes regarded as sons of Hephaestus, god of metallurgy, and shares some similitudes in nature with other mysterious, archaic race like the Cyclopes and Telchines (who were also associated with metallurgy); Hesychius of Alexandria writes that the Cabeiri were karkinoi (“crabs”, in Ancient Greek) who used their pincer-shaped hands as tools for metalworking.
In any case, there is surely a connection between Samothrace and Cadmus: the mysteric cult of the Cabeiroi was also celebrated in Thebes, and according to some versions of the legends, it was in this island in the Aegean Sea that the wedding between Cadmus and Harmonia took place.
Τό Του Δράκοντος ΣῶμαTo Tou Drakontos Sōma
Embodiment of Regret
Rank: A
Type: Anti-Unit
The reptilian form assumed by Cadmus and his wife at the end of their lives.
After many misadventures, Cadmus finally let out final regret: “If the life of a Snake is so dear to the gods, then I wish that life for myself!”
And as soon as he had finished his words, the transformation began: Cadmus was quickly transfigured into a snake while his wife observed the event in shock. Wishing to not lose her beloved husband, she expressed the same wish, and it was fulfilled.
This new form carries the same type of curse of the Ismenian Dragon: every person or Servant who injures (or, even worse, kills) Cadmus thus transformed, will incur in a curse-like effect that greatly lowers his/her LCK rank.
As Archer:
Spoiler:
Thanks to Seika for the big advice.
As a note: you may have noticed a certain similarity between Lancer and this profile for Cadmus. Basically, this Cadmus uses the Divine Words in the same way Lancer uses Runes.
Last edited by Sherrinford; June 8th, 2013 at 09:56 AM. Reason: minor fixing.
Thanks for Spinecrush ma’am may I have another!
Archer
True Name: Jacob
Gender: Male
Height/ Weight: 189 cm/ 99 kg
Alignment: Neutral Good
Appearance:
He evokes the imagery of a conniving scoundrel, spending his days taking the coins of others through his sharp arrow and sharper tongue. Yet, that is not all he is. He held himself with a proud bearings that would do the Kings of old proud, and always nurture a perpetual half-smiles as if he had a joke he couldn't wait to share. His attire consist of simple travelling clothes and a green hooded cloak. His eyes and hair are a bluish-gray. His coppery skin is oily, like that of the gladiators of days of yore.
Personality:
Someone content with the station of his life, who had resolved his issues. While his past life had its ups and downs, ultimately he died surrounded by his sons and families. For a Heroic Spirit, he had a surprisingly happy ending. Nevertheless, the summoning of him in his prime had regressed this man content to simply live his life to largely paranoid man who lived by his cunning and pragmatism. In battle, Archer is a fierce combatant who fought ignorant of the difference in skills. While this is often detrimental, it once allows him-who then was simply an exceptional Human- to win against an expression of the World.
Stats:
Strength: B (A)
Endurance: B (A)
Agility: C
Magical Energy: D
Luck: C
Noble Phantasm (Rank): B
Class Skills:
Magic resistance (E-B) – Archer is a special case in that, despite his qualifications as the class, his greatest feat is one of martial strength. To reflect this, he is given an unprecedented variable level of Magic Resistance skill. In effects, the closer he is to an opponent, the higher his magic resistance rank will be.
Independent Action (B) – While he wouldn't qualify for such a high Rank usually, his legacy- his people- lived in exiles for many years and overturn fates that would destroy them many time over. He is thus awarded this rather glamorous rank despite his comparatively low resourcefulness amongst those who qualify as Archer.
Personal Skills:
Perseverance (A+) – At this rank, Archer can face an overwhelmingly powerful opponent and fought them to a standstill. Its effect is not unlike that of the skill Battle Continuation that steadily reduces in effectiveness by half Rank after a certain amount of turns in combat. This skill is granted not because of his abilities to survive beyond the possibilities of a mortal but in acknowledgement of his impossible triumph over an enemy far beyond his abilities.
Blessings of the Divine (X) / (A) – His nature as a mortal who somehow won against God in physical combat nullifies the benefits he would have received from God’s blessing. Upon the activation of his noble phantasm, however, the gestalt existence of one who commits the sacrilege and one chosen by God is reconciled. He, along with Abraham his father, was promised the World. At this rank, he gains the benefits of Protection of the Faith (A) and Territory Creation becomes viable.
Territory Creation (X) / (D) – As Jacob is not a magus and, indeed, never faces magic in his life beyond that of Divine in nature, it normally wouldn’t make sense for him to have this skill. Nevertheless, of the many blessings Jacob receives, one allows him to sanctify an area that may be called a “stairways” or “ladders” that hinders the passage of his enemies. It is the imposition of the struggles of Israelites through the analogy of the Jacob’s ladder onto the World.
Natural Body (X) / (B) - His nature as a mortal who somehow won against God in physical combat nullifies the benefits he would have received from being born a Patriarch of old. Upon the activation of his noble phantasm, however, the gestalt existence of one who commits the sacrilege and one chosen by God is reconciled. At this rank, his STR is treated as a Rank-up.
Noble Phantasms:
Esau – the Iron that allows man triumph over God- Rank (B) – Anti-Unit
A bow that has served Jacob well in his past life, obtained through deception. As a child, Jacob tricked his father and obtained the blessing meant for his brother, who was away on a hunt at the time. Overcome by murderous rage, his elder brother Esau, tries to kill Jacob by beating him to death with the bow and arrows, only to be disarmed by Jacob. Before steels could be drawn, however, the feuding of the brothers was stopped by their mother. While she loves Jacob dearly, she recognize that the siblings could not live alongside each other, and banish him. Jacob, in his regrets, named the bow after his estranged brother and always kept it close. Eventually, it would be imbued with the feat "bow that shot arrows true against feasibilities''
A simplistic-looking yew shortbow and iron arrows in goatskin quiver. Before the legendary wrestle, Jacob shot at God, the iron arrow hitting Him in the sinew of the thigh that is on the hip socket. Upon activation, any opponent hit by the arrows suffers a Rank down in all stats. Those of Divine origin suffer the same effects thricefold. This NP is extremely prana efficient.
Israel – Gather together and hear, you sons of Jacob, And listen to Israel your father. – Rank (B) – Anti-Unit
On his death bed, Jacob finally reconciles his nature of Pride as a Man and the Humility of one Chosen by God. Realizing this, he blessed each of his twelve sons that they and their tribes would survive in the centuries to come.
Upon activation, Jacob is able to utilize the sealed skills of Blessings of the Divine and Natural Body. These skills maybe conferred to others a total of 12 times, after which it is lost forever. As long as one use remains, however, Jacob can activate it without expending a charge.
Note : A smart Master would probably utilize him like the hypothetical Sneaky!Diarmund. Being as he is in his prime and still high on life, said Master would need to, unless they are strong enough, use around 2 command seals for him to do so. Another method is to send him in a suicidal mission against an overwhelmingly powerful opponent and hope his Battle Continuation allows him to survive after he realizes how outmatched he is.
If summoned in the same Grail War as Gilgamesh and/or Enkidu, his luchador self takes over and he challenge them to a wrestling match. The King or The Beast will accept. Jacob will lost the first two duels, only to barely win the third. Afterwards, the duo/trio will go full shounen and win the Holy Grail War.
Last edited by Aodyssey; May 18th, 2013 at 01:33 AM. Reason: Retouch him a bit.
Could use better formatting, also, fix those hotlinks
M'kay.
Broken links because you're presumably too lazy to change mark-up from site to site. An excellent first impression.*True Name: [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob Jacob]]
*Appearance: [[http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs14/i/20...y_Markovah.jpg Faceclaiming.]]
Detailed and thorough personality here.*Personality: While generally an average guy, one aspect of Jacob’s character shines above all else- he doesn't like to lose. Ever.
Look fine except for Luck E. Fighting a god (thus an expression of Gaia and the order of the World) seems pretty obviously like it warrants a good rank in the ability to overturn fate. (And on pure 'good fortune', his life has its ups and downs, but he lives long and dies surrounded by his family and many heirs).*Stats: [INDENT]**Strength: B (A)
**Endurance: B (A)
**Agility: C
**Magical Energy: E
**Luck: E
**Noble Phantasm (Rank): B
Making the Sheet Boring (A)*Class Skills:
**Magic resistance (C)
**Independent Action (B)
Why? Also why, why and why? Compare how Herakles and Cú Chulainn survived for lengths of time beyond all reason when they were given their mortal wounds, and then tell me how on earth dying in bed not only is near that level but outdoes them.*Personal Skills:
**Battle Continuation (A+)
Incredibly one-note character you're making here.**Protection of the Faith (X) / (B) – His nature as a mortal who somehow won against God in physical combat nullifies the benefits he would have received from God’s blessing. Upon the activation of his noble phantasm, however, the gestalt existence of one who commits the sacrilege and one chosen by God is reconciled.
**Natural Body (X) / (B) - His nature as a mortal who somehow won against God in physical combat nullifies the benefits he would have received from God’s blessing. Upon the activation of his noble phantasm, however, the gestalt existence of one who commits the sacrilege and one chosen by God is reconciled.
This makes no sense. Like, at all. Gáe Bolg is acknowledged and enforced by the World and more, and it has massive emphasis placed on being a curse and Luck allowing it to be overturned.As this feat has been acknowledged by the World itself, it is not a Curse and thus protections and Luck does not factor into avoiding it. This NP is extremely prana efficient.
Really kinda dull. "Here's a Noble Phantasm. It unlocks generic skills. Yay."**Israel – Gather together and hear, you sons of Jacob, And listen to Israel your father. – Rank (B) – Anti-Unit
On his death bed, Jacob finally reconciles his nature of Pride as a Man and the Humility of one Chosen by God. Upon activation, Jacob is able to utilize the sealed skills of Divine Protection and Natural Body.
Wut.If summoned in the same Grail War as Gilgamesh and/or Enkidu, his luchador self takes over and he challenge them to a wrestling match. The King or The Beast will accept. Jacob will lost the first two duels, only to barely win the third. Afterwards, the duo/trio will go full shounen and win the Holy Grail War.
Beast's Lair: Useful Notes
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Updated 01/01/15
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Seika stop spinecrushing people we don't have enough hospital beds to go around
Just throw them in the basement.
Do we have enough worms to go around, though?
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