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Thread: Create-a-Servant

  1. #6181
    Dapper Deathwing YeOfLittleFaith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knick View Post
    YoLF, nice job man.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fafnir View Post
    +1. Looks good.
    Thanks guys!



    Quote Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
    Not my fault Shirou is an awesome bro to lesbians.

  2. #6182
    夜魔 Nightmare
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    A couple pages ago somebody mentioned that logically since Ea is the foundation for all myths of hell there should be a weapon that is it's rough equivalent for "heaven," or at least a Celestial equal to it as a world-crafting weapon of the gods.

    This immediatly made me think of the Ame no Nuboko, the divine spear which was used by Izanami and Izanagi to raise the islands of japan from the primordial sea. So I did some reading.

    Turns out that the first written record of the Shinto creation myth wasn't until after 700 AD, and at that point it wasn't even a unified religion really, just a collection of folk mythology and territorial beliefs. Not exactly on-par with the 2500+ BC of Gilgamesh, or even the 18th Century BC where the earliest forms of the Epic have been found. Even if we allow for the myth to have existed long before its first recording (even then, the archeological evidence for Japanese first civilizations beyond simple hunter-gatherer tribes doesn't show up until 300 BC) and presume that the legend was known throughout Japan's islands, it's still not even close to the age/fame that Gil brings to the table.

    So add that to the list of stuff that can't rival Gilgamesh I guess. Maybe Chinese mythology would have something...

  3. #6183
    死徒(上級)Greater Dead Apostle
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    Well ... ancient Chinese history and ancient egyptian history may got something at hand. Could Pangu be considered sufficently human to be a Servant?

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    ジュカイン Lycodrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenbach View Post
    Well ... ancient Chinese history and ancient egyptian history may got something at hand. Could Pangu be considered sufficently human to be a Servant?
    "Creator of everything in certain versions of Chinese mythology": no.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seika View Post
    Yes, excellent. Go, Lyco, my proxy.
    F/GO SUPPORT

  5. #6185
    死徒(上級)Greater Dead Apostle
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    Changed the Skill list. Still doesnīt feel like the Servant is sufficently broken enough, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenbach View Post
    Read the current discussion and felt like creating a sufficiently broken Servant. Didnīt bother to spellcheck the text while or after writing it, though, and didnīt even feel like properly rereading it, so there may be some critical errors lurking around. Here it is.

    Name: Trickster Archetype

    Identity:

    The embodyment of the whole Trickster Archetype, embodying humans nature to rebel against the gods, to change and to advance through further understanding by being unbound by the current state of the world. While supposedly only containing human heroes, thatīs not strictly
    true, as personification of Trickery contains the aspects of trickster deities and such primordial existences as well.

    Personality:

    Befitting the embodyment of the trickster archetype itself, Trickster-tans personality is just as changing as itīs mode, and as such, the desctiption of "being highly chaotic" and "prone to compulsive trolling" (more like acting like a gadfly than outright trolling, though) seems highly adequat. Although much more friendly toward humanity than the gods themself, the tendency to pull pranks and cause chaos to teach a lesson or to change the rules or for the hell of it is still troublesome, and as such, will not evil in nature, Trickster-tan isnīt a fully good person either.

    Apperance:

    As a shapeshifter, apperance is meaningless.

    Class: Assassin

    Servant Stats:

    Alightment: Chaotic neutral

    Strength: C
    Endurance: C
    Agility: A+
    Mana: A
    Luck: EX

    Class Skills:

    Presence Concealment: A+

    Personal Skills:

    Animal Dialogue: A
    Charisma: A+
    Divinity: A++
    Independent Action: A
    Mental Pollution: EX
    Pioneer of the Stars: EX
    Self-Modification: A
    Shapeshifting: EX

    Noble Phantasm:

    Ultimate Theft
    Rank:
    EX
    Type: ???

    Condensing one of the most fundamental aspects of sapient life (or even life at a whole, no matter itīs sapience), be it animals, humanity or for example those created or disorted by humanity - like divine spirits, who,
    originally embodying aspects of the world, over time grew closer to humanity in terms of apperance, personality amd behavior, if they didnīt directly originate from humanity to begin with, that is -, this Noble Phantasm provides a reason for the very existence of deceit and trickery: That is, to get an oppturnity to obtain something, be it the fullfilment of an personal goal or something in the possession of someone other, reached through the very acts of exploitation and thievery.

    As sapient life no matter itīs form continues existing by taking from others, itīs not exactly unexpected that the most advanced sapient life living on earth evolved thivery the most and at the same time depends on and thrieves on thievery the most. Be it humans stealing from humans, or humans stealing from gods or humans stealing from the world, thus waging wars of conquest on every scale against each other or angering gods or plundering and destroying the planet in the process of what they do.

    In a way, could be considered to be the oldest Noble Phantasm, embodying the very way life works and as such, being possibly at least as old as live itself. Even the creation of the current earth by Ea could be, depending on the point of view, be considered a theft as the primordial existence that did it already possessed sapient intelligence and the very act itself of reshaping the planet according the gods will took the planets chance away to cool and shape itself on itīs own according to natural law or the chance of another god to shape the planet on itīs own.

    Omnipotent in what it does, this Noble Phantasm allows to steal everything in existence no matter what and no matter what it is (even if itīs conceptual in nature), though the closer something is related to Akasha, the more difficult it becomes to actually steal it.

    This Noble Phantasm works similiar to "collect and use" concepts by warping reality to obtain and place whateverīs supposed to be stolen by it within the within the Noble Phantasm in a transcedent space outside space-time itself in which never anything ever changes. After something got stolen, itīs completly traped within the Noble Phantasm and the only option to act ineract with whatever it is is by "throwing it away", though the actual act and manner in which something is thrown away can be decided by the user of this Noble Phantasm at will, thus possibly even changing the composition and nature of whatever got stolen to a limited degree.

    Since itīs a omnipotent power in the hand of someone not omnipotent, handeling this Noble Phantasm is quite difficult, because of which several restrictions apply.

    As mentioned before, the closer something is related to Akasha, the more difficult it is to be affected by the use of this Noble Phantasm, and the more abstract something it the more time it takes to successfully activate and use this Noble Phantasm, as the what is to be stolen has to be defined first, and depending on the general scale of use, the process may become more difficult yet again and the greater the scale, the greater the Prana costs per use. Since theft isnīt supposed to kill by itself, this Noble Phantasm cannot cause death as a direct consequence of itīs use.

    Some examples to elaborate how this Noble Phantasm works and how where itīs limits of use apply:

    While unable to directly kill, there are several different ways to cause death after the actual theft itself. One of the most basic examples would be to steal a
    weapon and throw it away it at enemies as to wound them or to throw it in ones own hand to use it to kill someone. Or to throw a stolen Noble Phantasm along with itīs ownership away in the own hand as to be free to use it as one pleases. More complex examples would be to "steal the light radiated by the stars", and to throw it away as incredible intense beams of light, or to "steal the fire from the gods", as in legends, and throw the stolen fire, a divine mystery beyond mortal reach and older than civilization itself, at ones enemies to burn them to ash, or even to "steal the moon from the sky" and then to throw it at ones enemies, smashing them with the incredible might of a celestial body.

    More indirect means to kill someone could be considered to, for example, literally "steal someones soul": Because the Noble Phantasm cannot kill directly, yet the Noble Phantasm can still "steal everything", the soul is stolen but the body without soul still acts as if the stolen soul is still within the body in terms of vital functions that gurantee life. Thus expelling the soul - which is automaticially put into a container to gurantee preservation - from the Noble Phantasm and devouring, stabbing, crushing, ripping it in pieces or otherwise destroying it will likely result in the death of the person whose hearth got stolen. Stealing something like that, however, will still result in the loose of whatever additional benefits it provides (like Magic Circuites) and since life and especially the soul can be considered to be naturally close to Akasha, using the Noble Phantasm like that isnīt exactly easy.

    There are also plenty of ways to sufficently weaken someone as to simply make them easier to kill. One such possibelity is to steal Od and Prana to sufficently weaken someone, though the amount stolen cannot be enough for a lifeform to die as a direct result or for a spiritual existence to be unable to keep existing because of lack of means to do so. Another way is to "steal a targets" luck as when all their luck is stolen, bad things that might finally cause their death like itīs natural as they are extremly more likely to happen.

    What this Noble Phantasm steals also depends on the actual definition they employ, as for example, "stealing someones time", could be interpreted in at least
    two different ways: Temporally "Stealing someones sense of time", thus making them unable to mentally keep up with the things that happen around them or to literally "steal someones time", thus taking some of their time away, which may - depending on the way it gets stolen - slow them down in time, as with less time to use, they cannot keep up with the slower time flow around them. Another example would be the way some things are definied. The act of "stealing someones secret" doesnīt necessarily erase the persons whoīs secret got stolen memory, as "stealing someones secret" simply indicates that someone other now also knows about it. By exploiting such facts, duplication of knowledge becomes possible, too, as the meaning of the act of stealing and the way whatever it is thrown away can be twisted quite excessively

    A sufficiently twisted meaning of "stealing someones apperance" may, for example, allow for someone to take on the exactly same apperance as another person as a disguise that cannot be penetrated by magical means, as in a perfect case of identity theft, without the person whoīs apperance got stolen suffering any effect at all, as otherwise "stealing someones apperance" would be equaling completly "taking their identity away" and thus more or less "killing them" or rather "ending their current life" without being left with another, thus resulting in the same, which cannot be done by using this Noble Phantasm.

    Thanks to the way it works, the act of "stealing" isnīt a bad act in and itself, as it can be easily used for something benefitical like "stealing someones "injuries", "stealing someones illness", "stealing the curse that slowely chips away someones life bit by bit" or to "take away someones pain", be it physical or emtional. As it can be stored within the Noble Phantasm forever, stealing it can be considered the same as curing it. Though after it has been stolen, it can be employed as weapon as well, by throwing it at someone or something to let them suffer the same of those from whom it has been taken away.

    The Noble Phantasm is also able to excessively affect the state of the mind, for example by "stealing someones will to fight" or by "stealing someones drive to life" or by "stealing someones anger away from them", thus making them suffer an incredible heavy blow to their moral. As whatīs stolen is only whatīs currently there, the effect of stealing something like that can be considered to be only temporary as something like that can always be recovered fully, even if it takes some time.

    When faced with Servants, this Noble Phantasm is even able to shake the very fundation of the Holy Grail War that ensures a Servants loyality, by stealing the command spells carried by someone, thus making the Master unable to force his Servant to servitude therefore forcing him to appeal to his Servants goodwill.

    Itīs also noteworthy that indicating the act of theft decreases the Prana costs and difficulty to definie the theft itself considerably, and the closer the act of theft is simulated, the greater the ease of use. So itīs quite a bit easier to steal someones clothes by touching them as it is otherwise and by touching some- ones head (or even better, his brain), stealing their memories may become considerably easier as well.
    Last edited by Schattenbach; July 22nd, 2013 at 09:01 PM.

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    Running away from Falconetti AsGryffynn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguine View Post
    A couple pages ago somebody mentioned that logically since Ea is the foundation for all myths of hell there should be a weapon that is it's rough equivalent for "heaven," or at least a Celestial equal to it as a world-crafting weapon of the gods.

    This immediatly made me think of the Ame no Nuboko, the divine spear which was used by Izanami and Izanagi to raise the islands of japan from the primordial sea. So I did some reading.

    Turns out that the first written record of the Shinto creation myth wasn't until after 700 AD, and at that point it wasn't even a unified religion really, just a collection of folk mythology and territorial beliefs. Not exactly on-par with the 2500+ BC of Gilgamesh, or even the 18th Century BC where the earliest forms of the Epic have been found. Even if we allow for the myth to have existed long before its first recording (even then, the archeological evidence for Japanese first civilizations beyond simple hunter-gatherer tribes doesn't show up until 300 BC) and presume that the legend was known throughout Japan's islands, it's still not even close to the age/fame that Gil brings to the table.

    So add that to the list of stuff that can't rival Gilgamesh I guess. Maybe Chinese mythology would have something...
    Egyptian mythology. It's 5,000+ years old or something. You could also bring Atlantian mythology in if you believe it was real for Nasu (which is likely the case).

  7. #6187
      Reiu's Avatar
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    Just droppin' this off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matrix Keyword: King of Heroes
    The tale of Gilgamesh, humanity’s most ancient hero, was imitated by the myths of countries all over the world.
    It could even be said without exaggeration that it is the origin of all mythologies and the model of heroes.

  8. #6188
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Wanking Gilgamesh has the official Nasu seal of approval since he does it himself anyways.

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    Running away from Falconetti AsGryffynn's Avatar
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    Simon Bolivar
    Alternatively known as Simón José Antonio de la Santísima Trinidad Bolívar y Palacios Ponte y Blanco.

    Class: Saber

    Simón José Antonio de la Santísima Trinidad Bolívar y Palacios Ponte y Blanco (24 July 1783 – 17 December 1830), commonly known as Simón Bolívar (Spanish pronunciation: [siˈmon boˈliβar]), was a Venezuelan military and political leader. Bolívar played a key role in Latin America's successful struggle for independence from the Spanish Empire, and is today considered one of the most influential politicians in the history of the Americas.

    Following the triumph over the Spanish monarchy, Bolívar participated in the foundation of the first union of independent nations in Hispanic-America, a republic, now known as Gran Colombia, of which he was president from 1819 to 1830. Bolívar remains regarded in Hispanic-America as a hero, visionary, revolutionary, and liberator. During his lifetime, he led Venezuela, Colombia (including Panama at the time), Ecuador, Peru (together with Don José de San Martín), and Bolivia to independence, and helped lay the foundations for democratic ideology in much of Latin America.

    Parameters and Skills





    Spoiler:



    Noble Phantasm: Nevado, Blade of the Andean Winds is a powerful anti-unit Noble Phantasm. It grants Bolivar the ability to control the wind in an small area, as well as boost his power in a way that resembles Prana Boost. It also allows him to greatly increase the height of his jumps and fall from great heights without an scratch. It's main strength lies in it's ability to deviate projectiles by blowing a powerful, continuous gust of wind towards them. The sword can also generate powerful pressurized wind spears that can deflect projectiles and attack a target without warning. They all represent distinct attacks as their shape differs, which also makes it challenging even for those with Protection from Arrows, but not impossible to block. He can also throw his sword and have it return to his hand like a Boomerang. As a result, Bolivar can also be summoned in the Archer class. It's activation increases his AGL via the plus modifier.


    Spoiler:


    Noble Phantasm: Decree of War to Death, Spark of the Rebellion is Simon Bolivar's trump card and his strongest Noble Phantasm. It is a bounded field whose Conceptual Power makes all Noble Phantasms into B ranked Noble Phantasms (his included) and decreases by one rank the requirements of a Noble Phantasm's Conceptual Ability. It increases his vitrification statistic through the plus modifier.

    In case you don't understand: Excalibur is decreased into a B rank Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasm. Gae Bolg is not affected. God Hand's damage requirement is decreased to B rank.

    Too strong still?
    Last edited by AsGryffynn; July 23rd, 2013 at 12:53 AM.

  10. #6190
    Totally not a Saber clone Knick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amaranth View Post
    It is a bounded field whose Conceptual Power makes all Noble Phantasms into B ranked Noble Phantasms (his included) and decreases by one rank the requirements of a Noble Phantasm's Conceptual Ability.

    In case you don't understand: Excalibur is decreased into a B rank Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasm. Gae Bolg is not affected. God Hand's damage requirement is decreased to B rank.
    Lol what?

    So basically you have a NP that reduces the conceptual rank of NPs to B rank? Cause there is no way for it to weaken the output of a stronger mystery, NPs don't work that what. The stronger mystery will overcome the weaker ones effects, like like Avalon healing damage done by Gae Bolg.

    Also it would not affect God Hand. God hand literally says lolno to anything not at least A-rank.

    Should still not have A-rank riding. B at most for him since he is again relatively modern and there is nothing about him riding beasts. For any human mean of transport B is more than enough. I mean the King of KNIGHTS only have B rank riding.

    Sword is still to powerful, and also has no basis in his deeds. And even if he did have a magic sword it would never be A-rank, hell not even B-rank. It would be C at the highest simply because if it was a weapon he possessed there is no way it would be that powerful considering how close he is to the modern era. Invisble Air is a C rank NP made by Merlin, so making it a C+ rank would be reasonable because its power would be much higher under specific conditions, such as using it to fire 'wind spears'.

    Stats still to high (NP ranks are normally the rank of the highest NP accessible), he should not have A rank strength. If you want him to have A rank in anything the only likely one is luck.

    Your still trying to make him far more powerful then he should be. However this is much more reasonable then your last 2 attempts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    Are you swearing by the root or are you just happy to see me?

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    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors BlackField's Avatar
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    Lol random modern hero with stats that rival Siegfried, Mordred, Jeanne and Kiritsugu Saber.

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    Running away from Falconetti AsGryffynn's Avatar
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    http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Saber

    "Unformatted by a Heroic Spirit, the base parameters of the Saber-class container are: Strength A, Endurance B, Agility B, Mana C, and Luck D."

    That, and I'm making someone that has a chance of winning, however small it may be.
    Last edited by AsGryffynn; July 23rd, 2013 at 01:44 AM.

  13. #6193
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors BlackField's Avatar
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    A heroic spirit can be below the servant container. You do know that? Right?

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    Isn't that only applicable to Counter-Guardians, if so, tell me about a servant that is not a Counter-Guardian with below-container levels. I'm using that as a minimum.

  15. #6195
    Totally not a Saber clone Knick's Avatar
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    Once again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knick View Post
    Class means nothing except determine the preferred combat type and class skills.

    The actual identity is what is important. Your trying to make someone more powerful then he should be. If you want to make a really powerful servant make one that actually deserves to be that strong.
    Stop hiding behind the damn class container and make the servant true to the hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amaranth View Post
    Isn't that only applicable to Counter-Guardians, if so, tell me about a servant that is not a Counter-Guardian with below-container levels. I'm using that as a minimum.
    We only ever see one counter guardian. And otherwise all servants we see are incredibly famous and older heroes. He should be lower then almost all of them except for perhaps assassin class servants which are normally very weak.
    Last edited by Knick; July 23rd, 2013 at 01:50 AM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    Are you swearing by the root or are you just happy to see me?

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    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors BlackField's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amaranth View Post
    Isn't that only applicable to Counter-Guardians, if so, tell me about a servant that is not a Counter-Guardian with below-container levels. I'm using that as a minimum.
    No and Iskander, Saber(in some of her forms), Medusa(in some of her forms), both 4th and 5th Assassin.
    Last edited by BlackField; July 23rd, 2013 at 01:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knick View Post
    Once again.



    Stop hiding behind the damn class container and make the servant true to the hero.
    We haven't seen that in the official servants that have been made, you're making up your own rules. Those are the "MINIMAL" stats for the class. Unless I missed something, if you could summon an empty container, you'd summon those instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackField View Post
    No and Iskander, Saber(in some of her forms), Medusa(in some of her forms), both 4th and 5th Assassin.
    "Strength D, Endurance D, Agility B, Mana C, and Luck E."

    Iskander exceeds those. Medusa does even with Shinji as a master, Saber is still on par with her base stats and the Assassins are too. There is a stat trade off (decreasing one stat to increase the other) and so on, but that's all.

    The Phantasm can still be worked out, I have yet to research that further.
    Last edited by AsGryffynn; July 23rd, 2013 at 02:01 AM.

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    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors BlackField's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amaranth View Post
    We haven't seen that in the official servants that have been made, you're making up your own rules.



    "Strength D, Endurance D, Agility B, Mana C, and Luck E."

    Iskander exceeds those. Medusa does even with Shinji as a master, Saber is still on par with her base stats and the Assassins are too. There is a stat trade off (decreasing one stat to increase the other) and so on, but that's all.
    Evidence for any of these assertions? If anything servants roughly get adjusted to be more like the container, not that they steal stats from the container.

    Also Bluebeard and Nursery Rhyme.
    Last edited by BlackField; July 23rd, 2013 at 02:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackField View Post
    Evidence for any of these assertions?
    Rider (F/Z):
    STR: B
    DEF: A
    AGL: D
    MGI: C
    LKU: A+

    Rider (Shinji, F/SN):
    STR: C
    DEF: E
    AGL: B
    MGI: B
    LKU: D

    Saber (F/SN):
    STR: B
    DEF: C
    AGL: C
    MGI: B
    LKU: B

    Assassin (F/Z):
    STR: C
    DEF: D
    AGL: A
    MGI: C
    LKU: E

    Assassin (F/SN):
    STR: B
    DEF: C
    AGL: A
    MGI: C
    LKU: E

    Saber:
    Unformatted by a Heroic Spirit, the base parameters of the Saber-class container are: Strength A, Endurance B, Agility B, Mana C, and Luck D.
    Rider:
    Unformatted by a Heroic Spirit, the base parameters of the Rider-class container are: Strength D, Endurance D, Agility B, Mana C, and Luck E.
    Assassin:
    Unformatted by a Heroic Spirit, the base parameters of the Assassin-class container are: Strength D, Endurance D, Agility B, Mana E, and Luck B.

    You can move them around, but those are the minimum stats possible, regardless of which category they fall on, or the may drop to increase the rank of other categories (such as letting luck drop to E to bolster agility to B or swapping strength and endurance ranks). But those are the minimums of making a servant as far as I'm concerned.

    Bluebeard is anomalous because he's in the wrong container and was summoned incorrectly.

    "Much like Assassin of the Fifth War, Caster is an aberration in the normal Servant summoning process who cannot be called a proper Heroic Spirit. He was never actually a practitioner of magecraft during life, and he only funded and participated in alchemical and Demon-summoning rituals lead by the magus Franįois Prelati after his sanity was lost. Due to the massive mistakes Ryuunosuke made during the summoning ritual, he was placed into the Caster class container even though he is completely unsuited for it much like "Sasaki Kojirou" was placed into the unsuited Assassin class container."

    Same applies to Nursery Rhime:

    "Nursery Rhyme is not a hero in the traditional sense. Rather, it is a general term for any picture book that has managed to manifest itself into a corporeal existence. She is an irregular Servant created from the dreams of her master with the relic known as "Perpetual Engine - Maiden Empire"."

    Caster stats are: Unformatted by a Heroic Spirit, the base parameters of the Caster-class container are: Strength E, Endurance E, Agility C, Mana A, and Luck B.
    Last edited by AsGryffynn; July 23rd, 2013 at 02:18 AM.

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    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors BlackField's Avatar
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    Except F/SN Assassin stole his stats from Lancer. And Bluebeard/Nursery Rhyme are still there, who have nowhere near the stats of the container. All evidence suggests that servants are modified to be more towards the container rather just taking stats from it.

    Also why are CGs allowed to go under the container according to your theory?
    Last edited by BlackField; July 23rd, 2013 at 02:21 AM.

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