Create-a-Servant

[Apple]

much like Medea plays the role of the love interest of Jason(who isn't even the biggest dude among the Greeks).

If by 'love interest' you mean 'early greek yandere prototype' then yes, yes I heartily agree.

[Five_X]

Uh oh Apple, Seika is stalking the thread! She gonna snap yo spine like a twig.

[Lycodrake]

If by 'love interest' you mean 'early greek yandere prototype' then yes, yes I heartily agree.

Please, drop the subject.

[Milbunk]

Yeah thanks to the wishes of mankind ability he gets no enemy is too strong for him to defeat.

[Apple]

I don't understand, why is seika opposed to the idea?

[Five_X]

^^ More like planets and moons, man.

Anyhow, that was a joke, Apple. Seika has a silly reputation she has built for herself, whether she likes it or not. :P

[Apple]

Ok.

Someone make a billy mays servant.

[Spinach]

Snip

That was kinda the point. Take things that are only glossed over in the original myth, crank them up to 11, and WAAAANK.

[Yakumo-san]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...lB-yrHyNk/edit

Seeking ways to make this Servanto better. Couldn't think of anything else.

[Seika]

Anyhow, that was a joke, Apple. Seika has a silly reputation she has built for herself, whether she likes it or not. :P

Heh. Let's say that I don't necessarily like it, but I recognise that it's deserved. I am silly.

As to the spine-crushing, well, I can take jokes like Apple's (and Mcjon and Spinach earlier). I try to reserve spine-crushing for people who aren't joking, and seem to take what they're saying seriously. (I also admit to writing up the rant before the maintenance and before I saw Apple's post, but that's neither here nor there). So ... Lyco, how it's going for you?

>Mind-rape from Aprhodite to force Medea to fall in love with Jason = just "love interest"
What.

This provokes me to make text-walls ... so I'll give in to that urge, because education is good for you. But I will spoiler it so people can skip.

Seika's mini-lecture on Medea & godly influence of mortal actions in Classical mythology

First point: In Greek myth, interference of a god does not indicate an absence of responsibility, positive or otherwise. Pandaros is himself responsible for breaking the truce between Trojans and Greeks, despite Athene's instigation (and his death reflects this, when the mortal blow also severs his tongue). Conversely, one empowered and abetted by a god (e.g. Diomedes in Iliad V) takes the full share of credit.


Second point: Furthermore, it is generally (though not always) the case that gods do not act on unwilling hearts in myth, particularly not emotionally - perhaps helping to explain the last point. The principle has sometimes been called 'double determination' or 'overdetermination': a decision is made by the mortal and immortal in tandem, which helps make it seem more impressive. Related is the tendency of gods to convince mortals by argument, rather than affecting their minds directly. See also the Christian devil, but without the tiresome religious arguments over the precise definition and significance of free will.

Examples: Aphrodite appeals to Helen's love for Paris in Iliad III and gets told to stuff it. If Aphrodite reckons Paris is so good, she can go fuck him herself and be his slave (this is why Helen is freaking awesome). Aphrodite has to resort to a threat of physically affecting Helen (stealing away her beauty, thereby making her even more hated/likely to be killed than she already is) to have an effect - and Helen's still incredibly reluctant. When Phaedra is affected by Aphrodite in the Hippolytos, she is quite ready to kill herself than to give in. Her trusted friend, a mortal, is the one who persuades her to even approach Hippolytos (and she soon recognises the manipulation). You can see, then, why Medea is still considered responsible for her actions. One might say that the counter-examples of Helen and Phaedra are all the more reason to say that Medea was willing to love Jason.

That's a basic treatment - there are other nuances to be noted, particularly as regards forms of madness, but it makes the point.

Elaboration/reasoning behind first and second points, without necessarily being relevant

It is often possible to argue that the god is not personally involved at all when they've been invoked - only the emotions relating to their domain (Athene will be said to touch someone's heart with wise council if they make a good decision, for example). The Classical peoples were well aware of the possibilities for metaphor available when one has personified almost every concept under the sun, from love to the North Wind. The 'Olympian' version of a god (that is to say, the version with a distinct personality) was not thought to personally cause everything to happen which their domain necessitated, but their name might be used. Indeed, this is what happens in almost all love poetry, for example.

Ovid has a particularly funny point when he blames Cupid for stealing away parts of his verses, turning it into love poetry rather than epic. He obviously doesn't believe that Cupid did that – it's a metaphor for how he finds himself driven to write about love.

Summary for that spoiler: the divine force Love is thought to have a hand in every act of love. That's how it works. But the 'person' Aphrodite, who is the source/generator etc. of Love, is necessarily not involved in every act of love. However, if it seems more impressive, Love may be referred to as 'Aphrodite'. We need not then blame Aphrodite herself for Medea falling in love (this will be further strengthened by the third point).


Third point: See my lecture on consistency (or the lack of it) in Classical mythology - the accounts of Medea do not even tend to involve Aphrodite.

Hesiod: No mention
Diodorus Siculus: No mention, even to the degree that love doesn't seem to be a factor in their relationship
Euripides' Medea: briefest of mentions of Eros, admitted to be irrelevant by the characters
Hyginus: Mentions, but is too brief to lay positive or negative spin on it (see previous point - Medea may well have been willing)
Apollonius of Rhodes: Mentions, though Eros carries out the deed, and the plan was devised by Hera and Athene rather than Aphrodite.
C. Valerius Flaccus: Accomplished by Hera's persuasion. Also a classic and explicit example of 'double determination' as mentioned in the second point. Hera persuades Medea with words whilst she watches Jason's brilliance as a hero in battle.

Condensing 750 words, it's hard to support either saying that Medea has been 'mindfucked' to love Jason, or that Aphrodite is to blame in any case.

Also, don't scare me like that, Dark Pulse! I thought I'd lost that entire lecture when I tried to preview only to find that the forum was out for maintenance. O_O

[food]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...lB-yrHyNk/edit

Seeking ways to make this Servanto better. Couldn't think of anything else.

That Insight of the Poor is super out of place.

The dude was born a King, with a silver spoon shoved into his mouth by the Gods. He's not been a hobo his whole life like Karna.

[Spinach]

Oh god, Seika super spinecrush. That was awesome.

[food]

Except Nasu just pisses all over those points.

[Spinach]

Food counterattacks!

[Seika]

I think we wandered away from the Nasuverse Medea a long time ago, food.

(For that matter, we seem not to have been discussing Nasu!Medea's real life at any point. This (especially Lyco's post) was essentially provoked by Spinach making a comparison about respective 'mythological weights' and the legends of Brynhildr and Medea).

[food]

Fun fact!

According to charamat, the "default" Strength for a Saber is A.

Now let's see:

Shirou's Saber: B
Kiritsugu's Saber: B
Rin's Saber: A
Sakura's Saber: A
Ayaka's Saber: B
Gawain: B+
Siegfried: B+

WRYYYYYYYYYYYYY

It must be a pretty impressive container, considering that famous heroes such as Sigurd or Gawain actually bring it down.

Status is such a fragile thing. You even get a rank-down if your Master does not look at you right. After all the hurdles, it is kind of surprising so many Servants wound up with B rank status in anything.

Factors Affecting Servant Status

Land
Recognition
Magic energy of Master

The three factors that affect the status of a Servant are land, recognition, and Master.
With respect to land and recognition, the closer one is to the land (cultural sphere) that was the stage of the legend of the Heroic Spirit and the more that spirit is known, the stronger he is.
The meaning of "strong" here is the Servant becoming closer to the strength, equipment of that of the legend. Through this blessing, the addition of another NP is also possible.
If Chu Chulainn had been summoned in his homeland Ireland, a castle, chariot, protection of sleeplessness, and the like would have been added probably. Also, if the magic energy of the Master is powerful, the Servant will become closer to his strength as in the legend.

Sabre
Master: Emiya Shirou
STR: B
CON: C
AGI: C
MGI: B
LCK: B
Noble Phantasm: C

Class Skills:
Magic Resistance A
Riding B

Because Altria has served under several Masters, she is a good example for demonstrating the effect that the Master’s magical energy has on Servant Status. Because Shirou’s Magical Paths were obstructed, Altria’s ability cannot be called that of the best Servant while having Shirou as her Master.

Sabre
Master: Emiya Kiritsugu
STR: B
CON: A
AGI: A
MGI: A
LCK: D
Noble Phantasm: A++

Class Skills:
Magic Resistance A
Riding A

Altria’s abilities rose when having Kiritsugu as Master. Her LCK status decreased since even Kiritsugu still could not provide sufficient magical energy, as a result the status was affected by the Master's way of life. When having Rin as a Master, Altria was able to unleash her original abilities without being affected by the Master.

I think we wandered away from the Nasuverse Medea a long time ago, food.

Sorry then. Context for me means "the last two posts in a back-and-forth dialogue".

[Yakumo-san]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...lB-yrHyNk/edit

Seeking ways to make this Servanto better. Couldn't think of anything else.

That Insight of the Poor is super out of place.

The dude was born a King, with a silver spoon shoved into his mouth by the Gods. He's not been a hobo his whole life like Karna.

Fixed. It's not a copy paste of Karna's skill, but I forgot exactly why the hell he had that skill. Thanks for pointing this out.

[Mellon]

Every time I see an EX rank NP on someone who is not Iskander/King Arthur/Gilgamesh/Rama I want to rage.

You must have serious "legendary credits" on your "hero scorecard" for that. Like conquering most of the world or something like that. Someone who is a household name and known by everyone in the world. Heck, Herc does not classify for an EX rank NP.

Same with a skillset that ranks overall higher then anything that Saber/Gil/Heracles has.

[Yakumo-san]

He is a king that settled disputes amongst the gods. He was the favorite amongst gods. Hell, that guy was the only one who the gods listened to when he asked for the drought plaguing Greece to stop.

He is the effing ancestor of all Myrmidons according to some legends, where Zeus upon hearing his request, turned all the ants of Aegina into the Myrmidons, those who are amongst the finest warriors of Greece.

Even Alexander the Great refers to Aeacus as his ancestor to try and gain popularity. That, and due to his all awesome Justice and Piety, he got appoitned as one of the three judges of hell in the after life.

This guy is nothing to scoff at.

[Mellon]

He is a king that settled disputes amongst the gods. He was the favorite amongst gods. Hell, that guy was the only one who the gods listened to when he asked for the drought plaguing Greece to stop.

He is the effing ancestor of all Myrmidons according to some legends, where Zeus upon hearing his request, turned all the ants of Aegina into the Myrmidons, those who are amongst the finest warriors of Greece.

Hell, even Alexander the Great refers to Aeacus as his Dad to try and gain popularity. That, and due to his all awesome Justice and Piety, he got appoitned as one of the three judges of hell in the after life.

This guy is nothing to scoff at.

Yeah. But high enough to classify for 3 A+ skills and an EX skill and a NP?

I call bullshit. That is higher then Heracles, King Arthur or Gilgamesh qualifies for. And Aeacus is definitely not a more famous figure then those three (nor are his mythical feats "greater" then anything Heracles did).

To classify for an EX rank NP, you need to have fame in addition to BS made up in your legend. And Aeacus is in no way famous enough to match any of the three abovementioned characters. Like I said before, in the legends, Rama killed 14000 Demons (or demon hordes depending on the translation) in 14 minutes. And hundreds of thousands of Rakasha soldiers and commanders in one battle.

I bet you that his "Servant Incarnation" is nowhere at that level.

Effing Exalibur, the most legendary and famous mythical weapon, ever is just A++. But no. Everyone and their dog seems to think that EX and A++ NPs are given out like candy these days.

EDIT: I do like the charsheet itself though. Very nice layout for the entire thing. Props for that.