Agrippina: Why is she Neutral Good? Sounds more like a villain to me... (As inaccurate as TM Alignments can be)
Other then that, she's pretty good. I like the idea of her 'three stage' NP letting her progressively take over the minds of her targets. Having it go from C to A is also a nice touch. Those kinds of mind-influencing NPs can easily be downright broken, so having it divided into three separate NPs (with only the last being nearly total mind-control) definitely helps balance it.
Having an 'evolved' version of Imperial Privilege is an interesting idea, though I'm not sure how necessary it is given that it seems mechanically identical to Nero's.
A-ranked Endurance also seems a little high, especially for a Caster. I know you mention she survived and thwarted a lot of assassination attempts against her, but unless she actually tanked them all with her body I'm not sure if such a rank is justified. Keep in mind that I'm not too familiar with the details of Agrippina's legend, though. (Other then her being Nero's mom, poisoned her son/daughter to try and gain control over him/her, failed and was eventually executed)
Last edited by RoydGolden; September 24th, 2016 at 06:46 PM.
Kind of curious as to why she has a superior form of Imperial Privelige.
It manifested from dying to the only one she truly loved. Despite what everyone seems to say, Agrippina did have her doubts of her son's sincerity when he invited her over, meaning she may have very well been aware of her impending death, yet, went anyway. I find it really endearing(?) that buried (deep?) underneath all that she was, Agrippina was still a mother at heart.
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Originally Posted by RoydGolden
Why is she Neutral Good? Sounds more like a villain to me... (As inaccurate as TM Alignments can be)
The same way Gilgamesh is Chaotic Good.
Last edited by Historia; September 24th, 2016 at 06:55 PM.
It manifested from dying to the only one she truly loved.
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The same way Gilgamesh is Chaotic Good.
Not entirely sure how that explains since it seems to be a type of IP only useable out of combat, whereas AFAIK regular IP can be invoked in combat. That and no offense but it seems kind of redundant to just rewrite Imerial Privelige in a way that makes it sound as if Aggripina was the best Roman Empress to award her a superior version of a skill that already sits at EX rank.
Not entirely sure how that explains since it seems to be a type of IP only useable out of combat, whereas AFAIK regular IP can be invoked in combat. That and no offense but it seems kind of redundant to just rewrite Imerial Privelige in a way that makes it sound as if Aggripina was the best Roman Empress to award her a superior version of a skill that already sits at EX rank.
Alright, then how about she is a Servant best used for behind the scenes, rather than up front and personal confrontations? And, for the record, she was.
Gilgamesh was Chaotic Good (presumably) because he was a hero in legend, even if his self in Fate was a dick. Was that true of Agrippina? I was under the impression she had a rather sinister reputation for 'poisoning the mind of the Emperor' (literally). In any case, it's a very minor critique since Alignments in Fate are notoriously illogical at times. (For instance, the above reasoning I gave for Gilgamesh utterly contradicts Medusa's Chaotic Good Alignment, which appears grounded in how she acts in the story rather then in her legend)
In any case, you still didn't answer my Endurance question.
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Why do I keep getting logged out when I try to post? It's happened a few times in the last few days...
A-ranked Endurance also seems a little high, especially for a Caster. I know you mention she survived and thwarted a lot of assassination attempts against her, but unless she actually tanked them all with her body I'm not sure if such a rank is justified. Keep in mind that I'm not too familiar with the details of Agrippina's legend, though. (Other then her being Nero's mom, poisoned her son/daughter to try and gain control over him/her, failed and was eventually executed)
When Nero tried to murder her, he first tried dropping the canopy of her boat (which was weighed down with lead) on top of her. She (and the servant who was with her) survived. The boat sank and in the subsequent confusion she was smart enough not to call out for help (which, the servant with her wasn't so lucky and the moment she did was bludgeoned to death in the water and subsequently drowned for good measure). She managed to swim back to shore, though wounded. Made it back to her villa. Rests for a little while, then is immediately up and about. Eventually her survival reaches Nero and he sends soldiers (specifically, soldiers who he knew held her in disdain as she still had a large influence over a great majority of them) to finish her, whereupon they make a big spectacle by cordoning off the entire villa, breaking down the entrance(s), seizing those other servants still with her and any of those in the crowd that had come in from the shore to see if the attempt on her life was true and were still loyal, as she's just lounging on her couch and waiting. She doesn't fight back but just insists they strike for the womb.
Last edited by Historia; September 24th, 2016 at 07:42 PM.
When Nero tried to murder her, he first tried dropping the canopy of her boat (which was weighed down with lead) on top of her. She (and the servant who was with her) survived. The boat sank and in the subsequent confusion she was smart enough not to call out for help (which, the servant with her wasn't so lucky and the moment she did was bludgeoned to death in the water and subsequently drowned for good measure). She managed to swim back to shore, though wounded. Made it back to her villa. Eventually her survival reaches Nero and he sends soldiers (specifically, soldiers who he knew held her in disdain as she still had a large influence over a great majority) to finish her. She doesn't fight back but just insists they strike for the womb.
Okay, that seems fair enough, then. Damn, she was hardcore.
Nero was scared shitless of her (as were many others).
Afterwards, he tried to play it off as a great achievement in a very theatrical display, but, when he actually saw her body that same night, remarked that he never realized just how beautiful she was and subsequently spent the whole rest of it in a panic because spooky ghosts and after that he could never really shake the nightmares. Also, paranoia. His supposed late words to her, 'For you I live, through you I rule', took on a whole other meaning.
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Speaking of Endurance, I would like to mention that Celtchar's (a Lancer) is only C+ while Kriemhild's (an Assassin) is A and Agrippina's (a Caster) is B because the more blood she sheds the more her spear gets off and the more her spear gets off the more her enemies fall and it's all just one ugly, bloody cycle.
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And B in Endurance is fair.
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Oh, wait, I didn't mention, they find out about her survival because word travels fast, yes, but, also because she gets one of her servants to deliver a message that basically said: 'Better luck next time, kid'.
Riding (A+): Normally, Rider can use any mundane creature or vehicle as a mount.
Due to her Noble Phantasm, circumstances may arise where she gains the ability
to mount Phantasmal or Divine races as well (dragons are still excluded).
Magic Resistance (D): Cancels single action spells.
Personal Skills
Independent Action (B): Capable of surviving two days without a Master, provided direct combat
is avoided and Noble Phantasms are not used. Rider is seen in African culture as the epitome
of a free and independent woman, and is a capable hunter and survivalist.
Mother of the Nation (B): A skill possessed by those who are the progenitors of an entire people.
Rider is regarded as the mother of the Mossi people of Burkina Faso. Because of this, she has a
high chance of recognizing the true names of Servants or Noble Phantasms that originate from Burkina
Faso and West Africa to a lesser extent. Whether or not her attacks will be able to match and exceed
attacks from these Servants is not dependent on attack strength, but instead a contested LCK check.
Beast Hunter (C): Adds a + modifier to Rider's STR when attacking an enemy with beastly or animalistic
traits. Combined with teaching in hunting from her husband and her own military training, Rider was
reputed to bring down an elephant in a single shot or strike.
Noble Phantasm
Ouedraogo~Stallion of the Land of Honor (C+, Support, Anti-Unit)
Rider's prized white stallion, a powerful animal fit for a princess. Rider's legend is so entrenched
in the culture of Burkina Faso that her horse and spear are present in the country's coat of arms.
A fine specimen that symbolizes her passion, personal drive and appetite for power, as well as the
honor and pride of the Burkinabe. Symbolizing her journey across the plains, mounting her stallion
elevates her END and LCK to rank A. In addition, Rider's legend makes the bridle, saddle and stirrups
of her horse more akin to Mystic Codes due to the importance of such things to Burkinabe culture. If
her horse is slain and she bridles another beast, that beast becomes her new mount and gains all of
Ouedraogo's attributes, including a pure white coat. Should she manage to obtain a mount of superior
rank, its quality is retained while under her control.
Background
Yennenga, an emblematic figure in Burkina Faso, is the mother of Ouedraogo, the first Mossi chieftain
and founder of the dynasties of the Mossi people.
Yennenga was the daughter of the King of Gambaga, an area in the northern part of the present-day Republic
of Ghana. One day, weary of the role of warrior chieftain in which her father had cast her, she decided to
leave and rode off by horse into a forest, far away from her village, where she lost her way. She met a
young elephant hunter, a lone figure from a different community from her own, whose name was Riale. They
had a son, whom they called Ouedraogo ("stallion" or "male horse"), as a tribute to the horse that had
brought Yennenga to Riale.
Ouedraogo and his sons founded the prestigious, centuries-old lineage of the Moose chieftains. Their
descendants still to this day embody political power among the Mossi in Burkina Faso. Yennenga has
become a legendary figure and a national emblem in the country. A personification of the female
warrior and the independent woman, she is often portrayed defiantly on horseback as if nothing,
neither society, tradition nor paternal authority, could stand in the way of her freedom of spirit.
Last edited by Funderfullness; September 24th, 2016 at 09:02 PM.
"We don't need martyrs right now. We need heroes. A hero would die for his country, but he'd much rather live for it." -Josiah Bartlet
It's been so long (in forum time) since the OP's been updated that I actually sent Seika a friendly profile message about that. We'll see if they get back to me.
Do realize that the old thread had its index updated like, maybe every six months if you were lucky, so a thread all of a few weeks old is gonna be laughed at.
Do realize that the old thread had its index updated like, maybe every six months if you were lucky, so a thread all of a few weeks old is gonna be laughed at.
Could've sworn the old thread was updated more often then that near the end. Since Hermes came on and started compiling stuff, I mean.
In any case, I didn't mean to antagonize her or anything. I was just curious since it almost seemed like the new thread had been forgotten, or something.
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I mean, looking back on the thread's history, one update was at page 760 after Kaiza made a compilation, and the next seems to be at 782 (shortly before the thread closes). Had that really been six months? Huh. If anything, I'd assumed I was overestimating how much time had been passing on this thread.
Last edited by RoydGolden; September 24th, 2016 at 10:48 PM.
Hopefully by then I'll have all those revisions done.
And to answer this:
Originally Posted by RoydGolden
Gilgamesh was Chaotic Good (presumably) because he was a hero in legend, even if his self in Fate was a dick. Was that true of Agrippina? I was under the impression she had a rather sinister reputation for 'poisoning the mind of the Emperor' (literally).
While it is true that Agrippina was a very, very dominate presence over Nero (his watchword for his praetorian guard was optima mater, meaning 'best mother'), her intentions for Nero were in no way evil. She didn't perceive them as evil, but, that she was doing good by securing the Roman empire for the future generations. Her whole life from the day she was born, to put it in a way you might understand, was one big 'Game of Thrones' where by the end she won the Iron Throne. She really didn't know any other way of life and when she tried to act like other women during the time she got confused and quickly went back to what she saw as 'normal', 'just', and 'logical'—good—behavior. That is, power plays, assassinations, manipulation, ruling, and, well, being a really strict, but, loving and, generally, fair, mother.
Julia: 'All your friends are a bunch of idiots, so I had them killed. Also I had them prepare your speech for later, so make sure to mesmerize it and don't wear that stupid outfit out in public you'll look like a fool and not the emperor of all Roma'.
Nero: 'Thanks, mom.'
Last edited by Historia; September 25th, 2016 at 01:45 AM.
Hopefully by then I'll have all those revisions done.
And to answer this:
While it is true that Agrippina was a very, very dominate presence over Nero (his watchword for his praetorian guard was optima mater, meaning 'best mother'), her intentions for Nero were in no way evil. She didn't perceive them as evil, but, that she was doing good by securing the Roman empire for the future generations. Her whole life from the day she was born, to put it in a way you might understand, was one big 'Game of Thrones' where by the end she won the Iron Throne. She really didn't know any other way of life and when she tried to act like other women during the time she got confused and quickly went back to what she saw as 'normal', 'just', and 'logical'—good—behavior. That is, power plays, assassinations, manipulation, ruling, and, well, being a really strict, but, loving and, generally, fair, mother.
Julia: 'All your friends are a bunch of idiots, so I had them killed. Also I had them prepare your speech for later, so make sure to mesmerize it and don't wear that stupid outfit out in public you'll look like a fool and not the emperor of all Roma'.
Nero: 'Thanks, mom.'
... Really?
Let's look at her hit list:
Agrippina's alleged victims :
47 AD
Passienus Crispus Agrippina's 2nd husband poisoned (suet)
49 AD
Lollia Paulina as she was a rival for Claudius' hand in marriage as proposed by the freedman Callistus. (Tac. & Dio)
Lucius Silanus was betrothed to Octavia, Claudius' daughter before his marriage of Agrippina. He committed suicide on their wedding day.
Sosibius Britannicus' tutor executed for plotting against Nero.
Calpurnia banished (Tac.) executed (Dio) because Claudius had commented on her beauty.
53 AD
Statilius Taurus was forced to suicide because Agrippina wanted his gardens. (Tac)
54 AD
Claudius her husband poisoned (Tac. Sen. Juv. Suet. Dio.)
Domitia Lepida mother of Messalina executed. (Tac.)
Marcus Junius Silanus potential rival to Nero poisoned. (Pliny, Tac. Dio)
Cadius Rufus was executed on the charge of extortion.
Some of her kills seemed pretty selfish...???
If the argument is made that she did ally these things for Nero, I would argue that she only saw Nero as a tool to maintain her position as "Empress Dowager" (don't know what the Roman term use). Case in point: when Nero started slipping out of her control, Agrippina began supporting Tiberius Claudius Caesar Britannicus, the former heir-designate, to become Emperor and to oust Nero. Keep in mond that Britannicus was still a child, so Agrippina would have had a large hand in the actual rule.
Oh, and one other thing:
In addition to all of that, Fate!Agrippina also actually poisoned Nero (Red Seiba, the playable Saber in Fate/Extra), causing her migraines and some of the nuttiness that would eventually lead to Nero getting ousted. When Nero had Agrippina killed, Agrippina took the antidote down with her.
Also, despite Caster being a back line support, I feel that differentiating between Imperial Supremac and the standard Imperial Privilege is redundant. To the best of my knowledge, Nero never actually participated in direct combat yet she still has the skill.
That can easily be retconed, it's happened before in terms of attitude like with Agravain and his role.
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The only thing in concrete canon is the poisoning and it could be spinner in another direction or just say it was a biased account from Nero or something.
Originally Posted by Mr.Obsidian
