Tsukihime Remake Thread - NOT THE SPOILER THREAD

[Crown]

we can expect at least one more stream right

[Comun]

The next stream is scheduled to late August, so it should happen either on the release day or the day before it.

[Herod]

Dreaming about Saber's past is all fine and dandy, but not dreaming of Saber and dreaming of Archer instead just because muh merging memories, which itself is a cop-out, has always been kind of weird.

???
What are you talking about?

[TomPen94]

???
What are you talking about?

Think he's comparing the dream sequences of Shiki with Shirou.
Basically every time Shiki dreams of someone elses POV, there's a narrative reason for it, but when Shirou is dreaming about Archer it isn't properly justified.

[aldeayeah]

theyrethesamepicture.jpg

Whatever flimsy excuses each work comes up with to justify those scenes, it doesn't matter.

The reason for their existence is very clearly metanarrative; they give both us readers and the protagonist insight into otherwise unavailable characters.

It's still an ugly trick that Nasu loves to abuse. Kohaku route is particularly messy - that one has Shiki seeing dreams from no fewer than 3 POVs; SHIKI's, Akiha's and his own dissociated "killer" self.

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Think he's comparing the dream sequences of Shiki with Shirou.
Basically every time Shiki dreams of someone elses POV, there's a narrative reason for it, but when Shirou is dreaming about Archer it isn't properly justified.

Now a less meta rebuke: as far as justifications for a psychic link go, being the same goddamn person is a decent one. Also, it's not a one-off thing - Shirou's powerups in UBW are explained by the same device.

Then, consider the competition: a convoluted array of magical contracts, soul vampirism, shikigami puppetry, sword swallowing, sudden hyperempathic epiphanies and, in at least one memorable case, "people broadcasting their thoughts too loud" (Nrvnqsr's pre-death scene). How are those 'better justified'?

[aldeayeah]

Also, no idea where arai got this from, but

Reincarnation
転生 - Tensei

The transference of one's soul into another person while obtaining full control of that body, unlike normal consciousness transference into something with a soul where the control of the body is still held by the soul of the host body. Transfering one's soul into another person that possesses parts of the same soul (related by soul DNA, is the best way to put it). Normally has to start from scratch as a baby. Only a few have been successful at using this, and even so, it's not so much as reincarnation as it is the copying and copying of an inferior version of oneself as there's no guarantee that the reincarnated child will be just as capable as the individual.

The ability to transfer one's consciousness completely (as in having complete control) onto a familiar with a soul falls within reincarnation.

???
A ritual allowing for spiritual possession by one's former incarnation to gain experience and abilities from one's past life. Details unknown. Probably similar to Roa's power. Apparently the reason for Shirou's "level-up"/synchronization with Archer during UBW.

(from the 'Spells' page in the old fuyuki wiki)

[Herod]

Think he's comparing the dream sequences of Shiki with Shirou.
Basically every time Shiki dreams of someone elses POV, there's a narrative reason for it, but when Shirou is dreaming about Archer it isn't properly justified.

But Shirou does not dream about Archer. RIN dreams about archer. Shirou synchronize with him and he can see some of his memories during their battle, yes, but all the "I see a dream" sequences with Archer were Rin's all along.

[TomPen94]

Don't shoot the messenger, I just clarified what Ratman went.

I just didn't rebuke cuz I don't fully remember who dreams with who, both in Shiki's and Shirou's cases.

[Ideofago]

theyrethesamepicture.jpg
It's still an ugly trick that Nasu loves to abuse. Kohaku route is particularly messy - that one has Shiki seeing dreams from no fewer than 3 POVs; SHIKI's, Akiha's and his own dissociated "killer" self.

What exactly about it is an ugly trick? Every one of the situations is well justified- the link between SHIKIs, the link between Shiki and Akiha, also the focal point of her route, and dissociative personality disorder. Now stuff like Nrvnqsr thinking too loud? Yeah, that's on the sus side, but all of the other ones mentioned above are very well narratively grounded in my opinion.

[Deathhappens]

It's ugly because changing POV characters without warning entangles the narrative needlessly and risks getting the reader lost as to who did what when to whom. It CAN be used to great effect but only under specific circumstances and then sparingly, whereas as aldeayeah (how do you shorten that, anyway? ) said Nasu has a bad habit of abusing it.

[aldeayeah]

What exactly about it is an ugly trick?

It's a plot device to work around a writing problem.

That's not bad per se, but by overusing it, it can become a cliche/lazy writing

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(how do you shorten that, anyway? )

https://youtube.com/watch?v=uq-gYOrU8bA

aldea is fine too. It means village in Spanish.

[Ideofago]

I understand the implications, but I never got that feeling reading the novel. The jarring aspect is there, very much, but all things considered, I think it furthers the work.

And yeah, this sounds like I'm bullshitting, but I think the jarring of the situation and scene for the reader matches that of the character. Shiki doesn't know what the fuck is going on, does not understand any aspect of the dreams themselves and is terrified shitless himself as well.

In many cases, it can be a problem, but Tsukihime, and specifically Hisui's route for that matter, has the connection between Shiki and SHIKI as a focal point, and in this particular instance, I think it works to emphasize the main plot than to circumvent a problem.

(Though, I'm not very aware of situations where Nasu may make too much use of this; the most obscure thing I've read directly written by him was Notes.)

[aldeayeah]

I understand the implications, but I never got that feeling reading the novel. The jarring aspect is there, very much, but all things considered, I think it furthers the work.

And yeah, this sounds like I'm bullshitting, but I think the jarring of the situation and scene for the reader matches that of the character. Shiki doesn't know what the fuck is going on, does not understand any aspect of the dreams themselves and is terrified shitless himself as well.

In many cases, it can be a problem, but Tsukihime, and specifically Hisui's route for that matter, has the connection between Shiki and SHIKI as a focal point, and in this particular instance, I think it works to emphasize the main plot than to circumvent a problem.

(Though, I'm not very aware of situations where Nasu may make too much use of this; the most obscure thing I've read directly written by him was Notes.)

It's OK, I don't expect everyone to agree. It's just a peeve of mine.

You have a first-person story where stuff happens, that the protagonist (and the reader, since it's first-person) wouldn't normally be aware of.
So you use a fantasy plot device (clairvoyant visions, telepathy, etc) to make the protagonist/reader aware of it.

This shortcuts the development of the plot by providing both the protagonist and the reader with intimate knowledge of plot points and/or the inner workings of other characters.
It "works", but to me it feels too convenient, too contrived - almost like a cheat code. Hence, inelegant.

I myself love Tsukihime, perceived flaws and everything.

[TomPen94]

So I made my order... Hopefully the shipping won't take too long to reach me...
I won't understand shit but I have to have something physical from this game.

[Inuhanyou]

Speaking of interludes and pov switching, once again the manga is far superior to the original novel...just do that in novel form it shouldn't be so hard.

It's mundane, but one of the most memorable examples I remember is Sakaki San making a whole segment dedicated to arcueid flashing back to when shiki missed their park meeting and she goes to visit his house.

In the novel he just kinda wakes up and she's in front of him staring down at him and we don't really see much else, but in the manga we get to see all of her emotional states regarding anticipation, uneasiness, frustration, and then anger and even see what she is thinking in that moment as she's watching him sleep.

It stuck with me because that kind of thing despite how small it is really enhances and changes scenes that would kinda otherwise not be substantive at all

[Old Blood]

Seeing as there won't be anymore sex scenes, I wonder how they're going to deal with the moment in Arc's route? That incident between Shiki and Arc in the alleyway..
Let's hope there's not too many drastic changes.

[aldeayeah]

I'd expect drastic changes regarding sex scenes.

At the very least they'll be rewritten as romantic/violent scenes, depending on context.

For example, in the case you mentioned, the rape attempt could become a murder attempt.

[Inuhanyou]

The original scene was clearly a dance between sexual attraction and homicidal impulses for both parties one after the other.

The dance between arcueid and shiki wanting to fuck each other's brains out/murderize each other equally are one of the biggest reoccurring themes of the route along with their purer feelings for each other running paralell.

It's the most Romeo and Juliet scenario out there, outside of both of them being the last of their kind.

So it'll be interesting to see what they do with it. All I ask is that the core feeling of that struggle isn't lost, I'm not looking for a 1 to 1 recreation of events, just make it work well.

[Ideofago]

I just don't want dragons to be involved.

[Namelesss]

Seeing as there won't be anymore sex scenes, I wonder how they're going to deal with the moment in Arc's route? That incident between Shiki and Arc in the alleyway..
Let's hope there's not too many drastic changes.

They'll just hug it out instead.