Questions, questions and more questions (READ THE OP FOR ANSWERS)

[pinetree]

Suppose I'm a mage and my element is Earth.
My crest has a freezing (water) spell.

Can I use it? Do I and can I change it's element to turn it into a petrification spell with the same effect, for example? Do I need to make a new spell instead of using my acestor's?

[You]

Suppose I'm a mage and my element is Earth.
My crest has a freezing (water) spell.

Can I use it? Do I and can I change it's element to turn it into a petrification spell with the same effect, for example? Do I need to make a new spell instead of using my acestor's?

There are two levels by which you can think of magecraft in the Nasuverse.

The first is the mechanical model explained by:

Attributes of magic
The fundamentals of magic lies in “elemental magic.” Magic where one controls, for example, fire if his alignment is fire, or controls water if his alignment is water, is included in elemental magic.

“Attributes” add meaning to elemental magic and expands its versatility. The easiest way of understanding this is the attribute of “Reinforcement.” When the attribute of reinforcement is given to the elemental magic of fire, fire will burn more strongly, whereas if the attribute of reinforcement is given to the elemental magic of water, then water will flow with greater momentum and in greater amount. This is the simplest example, but in the more advanced levels, the attribute becomes more obvious than the alignment, which becomes more difficult to make out, if looking at this from the perspective of an outsider.

I'm sure most people on this forum know the food explanation of "magecraft is layering on enough attributes (meaning) to an element to do something."

The second is the mystery model:
This is the Magic Foundation stuff. Gandr is a Norse rune it curses people because pointing your finger is rude.

Both models are used in canon and are sometimes interwoven. The advantage of separating magecraft like this is letting the author infodump magecraft in two different ways. One is in the context of anthropology and occult, the other as a generalized system. Your question is about the mechanical model.

If the Freezing spell is purely elemental magecraft, then it requires a water element to use.
If it is an attribute that freezes water then yes, an earth aligned magus can use it but it produces a different effect (like you said petrification as a possibility).
Now, what in-universe decides whether the spell purely elemental or an attribute? That would be the rules of the mystery the spell is based off.
So the answer is, it depends.

[pinetree]

I did not realize those were two different models, I thought every spell had a core in elemental magic, even if it is extremely difficult to identify what it is due to the multiple attributes adding meaning. I think CM3 itself uses Illya's mind transference magecraft as an example so I assumed that extended for everything.

[pinetree]

Let me extend my question then to make sure I understand.

Let's say I have an elemental magic of petrification. Only mages of the Earth element can use it as it is. Other elements would have to find a concept from that element to achieve the same effects of 'stopping someone completely' (freezing for water, being surrounded by fire, etc).
I could also achieve the same result by relying on the foundation of gorgon mystic eyes, and in that case any mage, regardless of element, would be able to use it.
I could also have an elemental petrification magic that's dressed up in so many attributes that it's unrecognizable as an elemental magic. In this last case, would the Mage's element matter?

[You]

I did not realize those were two different models, I thought every spell had a core in elemental magic, even if it is extremely difficult to identify what it is due to the multiple attributes adding meaning. I think CM3 itself uses Illya's mind transference magecraft as an example so I assumed that extended for everything.

These models are used to discuss magecraft in-universe. The Theory of Magecraft is one theory. Every spell does start with an elemental alignment.
Think of physics where separate models are used to explain the same phenomenon. All models are imperfect, however one model might be better than another at explaining certain phenomena and vice-versa. Explaining things using the mechanical model has advantages, explaining things by talking about the mystery has a different set of advantages.

There is likely an in-universe explanation to why magecraft is talked in two different ways. Talking about magecraft as a general system made up of categories, costs, and effects means you don't have to discuss the mystery behind the spells and therefore risk someone taking your work.

The biggest example of this is would be Rin. Throughout FSN she talks about her Jewel Magecraft using a mechanical model. I use conversion, it's lets me store my magical energy into jewels, I can store other things etc. We don't get a hint of what the underlying formula is except when you see her soak the jewel in blood. Yet, the mystery behind that formula is never explained.

However, in Case Files you're given the tour of the mystery behind the Eldefelt magecraft (that the Tohsaka coversion is based off).

"But, if we look at the Gandr you showed me earlier, your magecraft is clearly sourced closer to northern Europe. That would mean it uses gems as a medium for magecraft, infusing them with magical energy by dyeing them with the user's own blood or other bodily fluids. It's better to look at it like a form of specialized Rune magic. While the state of Rune Magic in general is in decline, the Edelfelt's brought jewels into the mix and cut open a new path for themselves. It's probably a similar situation as to why their Spells are in English. If we ask what we can learn from that information, we can see that as an Edelfelt, you probably take great pride in the tremendous value of your jewels, very different from some many other nobles or aristocrats."

That's what makes Waver's superpower so dangerous. He's able to pinpoint the mystery when someone is giving the mechanical explanation. He's able to see through the magus equivalent to code-switching.

[pinetree]

Ok that's perfect, now I get it. Thanks a ton.

[You]

Let me extend my question then to make sure I understand.

Let's say I have an elemental magic of petrification. Only mages of the Earth element can use it as it is. Other elements would have to find a concept from that element to achieve the same effects of 'stopping someone completely' (freezing for water, being surrounded by fire, etc).
I could also achieve the same result by relying on the foundation of gorgon mystic eyes, and in that case any mage, regardless of element, would be able to use it.
I could also have an elemental petrification magic that's dressed up in so many attributes that it's unrecognizable as an elemental magic. In this last case, would the Mage's element matter?

Gorgon mystic eyes isn't a foundation, it'd be the formula. The foundation is a more generalized system. There isn't a exact name given to it in GO for the magecraft Medusa is able to use, so lets just say its "Gorgon Magecraft."

If the Gorgon mystic eyes replication spell was elemental then only earth magi can use it. Other magi who use the Gorgon Magecraft system who do not have an earth alignment would need to find/create a different formula within the foundation aligned to their element "to achieve the same effects of 'stopping someone completely' (freezing for water, being surrounded by fire, etc)."
If the Gorgon mystic eye replication spell is an attribute (an applied meaning) then anyone can use it. Depending on their element, it would look different but it would still be "petrification."

[pinetree]

Alright, formula. That's not terminology I'm used to but it makes sense. The foundation would be Greek mythology I guess.

Thanks for the help.

[You]

Alright, formula. That's not terminology I'm used to but it makes sense. The foundation would be Greek mythology I guess.

Thanks for the help.

Greek mythology would be the foundation (small f) of the Magical Foundation the Gorgon spells your magus is using is derived from. Mythologies are used to create Magic Foundations. Magic Foundations are created by magi (not always magi) and exist as Greater Rituals, High Thaumaturgy. They themselves are concrete formulae.
A Magic Foundation is magecraft that makes magecraft function (that might sound paradoxical).

[pinetree]

Oh, I didn't realize Magical Foundations were purposefully created and different from foundations, but I can see it is the case rereading theory of magic.

[Hawkeye]

Okay, so I'm quite interested in this myself (writing Fate fanfics with a bunch of unique magus) So I wanna see if I'm understanding this by way of metaphor. So, your Magical Foundation is like the school of science you use to approach a problem, the mystery is the formula you use to reach the answer and the mechanics is the answer itself? So like for example -

Foundation = Mathematics = Rune Magecraft

Mystery = Pythagorean Theorum = Blood Ritual

Mechanism = Length of the Hypotanuse = Conversion magecraft

Anyone would be able to tell by observing your magecraft that you reached a certain conclusion, 42 is the same number regardless of the school of thought used to reach it, and depending on the framing, might be able to tell your Foundation, but unless they know your formula, they won't be able to get from Foundation to Mechanism by themselves, thus maintaining the mystery of a given mage's research? Sorry if that sounds a bit asinine, I'm just trying to frame it in a way I can understand.

[Reign]

In the Millennium Castle in the inner sea (when Arc isn't manifesting it)?

[Petrikow]

In the Millennium Castle in the inner sea (when Arc isn't manifesting it)?

Yeah, pretty much.

[All fictions]

RIP Himalaya theory

[Rafflesiac]

Clearly you can noclip into the Inner Sea from the peak of Mount Everest.

[Comun]

Based Gatou finding world glitches.

[Maedhros]

RIP Himalaya theory

Golden Throne much?

[SMinairo]

I have a few questions about Aoko's magecraft:

During mahoyo, we are told Aoko has three kinds of "bullets": Snap, Draw and Magic Blow. Are these bullets and Starbow and Starmine related or are they complietely different things that can be used together? Also, during the story, she uses "

Tour Plan

Bullet configuration:

Starmine!

convergent launch!

" twice, but only the second time is Magic Blow mentioned, was the first time also this kind of bullet and they left the "reveal" for latter or was it unrelated?

Finally, is it known what "Spindle Tourer: Self-Sustaining Magic Square" is or does? The quick movement and defense forms are kinda self-explanatory, but normal and expansion not so much.

[Reign]

Yeah, pretty much.

smh Merlin lying with his "there are no walls, no castles" NP line.

[Dartz]

It's probably correct for Fate worlds.