Super Tsukihime Remake Spoiler Thread

[Petrikow]

For those unfamiliar with moonrunes, the “原理血戒” in “原理血戒 - Idea Blood” translates roughly to “original order blood commandment,” which, as Emilio said, suggests that DAAs have some innate tie to Gaia. Makes me wonder why PM is no longer a DAA, being the Beast of Gaia and all

What?

You can't just disassemble 熟語 in that fashion. 原理 is a word that contextualizes that Kanji that compose it. Drawing a link between 原理 (an ordinary word) and 人理 (a made-up word) seems farfetched, at best. Not to mention that the fashion 原理 is used within the text seems to suggest nothing of the sort you are implying.

[Lily Emilio]

The question is how Idea Blood even came to be. Could be there are DAs who has it naturally upon being turned by TAs, and it's only exclusive to those 27 or so, unless TAs make another DA. Or if Idea Blood is even needed at all for DAA title, like Roa's case only considered as such by Church.

This part answers it I think:

「おう、そこだ。　死徒の固有能力はヤツらが人間だった頃に手に入れたモノを、そのまま何百年 と成長させた

スキル

異能

にすぎない。ヤツらは自身が学んだものを吸血鬼になっても学び続け、結果としてそれが原理になっただけだ」 「原理……？」
「その死徒の命題。生きる目的。死ねない呪い。真の不老不死に至る唯一の路。これを原理血戒―――イデアブ ラッドとヤツらは呼んでいる。ま、一生かけても終わらない夏休みの宿題とでも思っとけ」
「この原理のため、死徒たちはそれぞれまったく別の目的で活動する。学んでいた

もの

真理

が一人一人違うからな。　で、だ。そんな死徒たちの中に、真剣に不老不死を学んでいやがるクソ野郎がいやが った」

Their original purpose in life that follows them as a curse, constantly being honed and developed after they turned DA.

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What?

You can't just disassemble 熟語 in that fashion. 原理 is a word that contextualizes that Kanji that compose it. Drawing a link between 原理 (an ordinary word) and 人理 (a made-up word) seems farfetched, at best. Not to mention that the fashion 原理 is used within the text seems to suggest nothing of the sort you are implying.

Yeah that wasn't what I original meant either. I was highlighting that it might indicate the DAs follows a different 理 (as a whole, not specifically the individual Idea Blood) compare to humans, just like you get the 理 of gods, 理 of the underworld, not that they have any sort of connection to Gaia. Think of it more like their ability to apply their individual 原理 onto the world and force it to reshape its laws to them temporarily like what we saw from FGO.

[Reverse_side98]

Okay im still not quite sure on the on idea bloods and all but if im interpreting this right

There are now 9 levels of DAs, 6 is the ceiling for most with 7 being the nobility, 8 being exclusive to successors of idea bloods and 9 for the DAAs. Anyone regardless of rank except 9 will automatically ascend to DAA when they have idea blood. All DAAs have idea blood.

Did i get it right?

[OnesFleetingGlory]

This part answers it I think:

Their original purpose in life that follows them as a curse, constantly being honed and developed after they turned DA.

Ah, so it's cultivable, separate from how they turned, albeit taking a long time to develop from scratch. Roa does qualify as a DAA given his pursuit of eternity. Thanks.

[Petrikow]

Yeah that wasn't what I original meant either. I was highlighting that it might indicate the DAs follows a different 理 compare to humans, just like you get the 理 of gods, 理 of the underworld, not that they have any sort of connection to Gaia. Think of it more like their ability to apply their individual 原理 onto the world and force it to reshape its laws to them temporarily like what we saw from FGO.

I found this doubtful too, though it is at least arguable.

So far the way 原理 is used seems to be more as a short hand for 原理血戒. In the excerpt you posted you can even see that its a very personal phenomenon, unlike say, 人理.

理 is a very common kanji. I wouldn't draw any conclusions from its usage alone.

[AAM1232]

The DAA list given is not fully updated right? Who's missing/replaced?

[Dullahan]

a whole ass book about the various meanings of the character 理

what petri said

[Lily Emilio]

I found this doubtful too, though it is at least arguable.

So far the way 原理 is used seems to be more as a short hand for 原理血戒. In the excerpt you posted you can even see that its a very personal phenomenon, unlike say, 人理.

That is true, and that wasn't my focus either.

理 is a very common kanji. I wouldn't draw any conclusions from its usage alone.

That would have been the case, if Nasu didn't use it in specific cases before to refer to certain laws/principles of things being projected as a phenomenon to overwrite the world. Enmatei being covered wht the principle of the underworld and exist as a singularity ontop of the current world for example (that's the main reason for my idea actually), and the he also used it for said made up word 人理.

[Petrikow]

If I were forced to draw a parallel between 原理血戒 and another piece of lore we've seen in the past I'd be much more inclined to link it to 起源.

The way it is presented in the story it is much more similar in that direction.

That say, I still wouldn't want to draw any conclusions just yet.

That would have been the case, if Nasu didn't use it in specific cases before to refer to certain laws/principles of things being projected as a phenomenon to overwrite the world. Enmatei being covered wht the principle of the underworld and exist as a singularity ontop of the current world for example (that's the main reason for my idea actually), and the he also used it for said made up word 人理.

I think the main problem is that in this case is that 原理 is an established, very common compound word, unlike the usage of 理 in the manner you describe. The furigana (Idea Blood) also doesn't hint towards what you are saying.

[Lily Emilio]

a whole ass book about the various meanings of the character 理

what petri said

Talk to me again once you've read some of the 5481 volumes of the 万壽道藏 or at least a few dozens buddhist scriptures, thanks.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

[Lily Emilio]

If I were forced to draw a parallel between 原理血戒 and another piece of lore we've seen in the past I'd be much more inclined to link it to 起源.

The way it is presented in the story it is much more similar in that direction.

That say, I still wouldn't want to draw any conclusions just yet.

It is indeed very similar to Origin, yes.

[Dullahan]

do any of those have a full moon on the cover

[Lily Emilio]

It has everything you need if you want another attempt to educate me.

[Dullahan]

believe me, I had no such intention

[Lily Emilio]

I think the main problem is that in this case is that 原理 is an established, very common compound word, unlike the usage of 理 in the manner you describe. The furigana (Idea Blood) also doesn't hint towards what you are saying.

No. You still don't get it. I merely pointed out that hey remember Nasu has been using 理 more than a few times for specific manners, in their more literal sense instead of the general meaning (remember how 霊長類 is used by Nasu nowadays? so much for a well-established term right?). And thus I believe it is possible that the DAs having their own equivalent of 人理 (NOT about Idea Blood) that is enforced by the Idea Blood's ability to project their Origin-like purpose, and this force as a whole conflict with 人理, weakening it, thus separating Tsuki and Fate world. I never said Idea Blood is something like 人理.

[Petrikow]

No. You still don't get it. I merely pointed out that hey remember Nasu has been using 理 more than a few times for specific manners, in their more literal sense instead of the general meaning (remember how 霊長類 is used by Nasu nowadays? so much for a well-established term right?). And thus I believe it is possible that the DAs having their own equivalent of 人理 (NOT about Idea Blood) that is enforced by the Idea Blood's ability to project their Origin-like purpose, and this force as a whole conflict with 人理, weakening it, thus separating Tsuki and Fate world. I never said Idea Blood is something like 人理.

Well, yes. I think I'm starting to get the nature of our misunderstanding. But then I have to ask, if "I never said Idea Blood is something like 人理." then why argue it from the point of the usage of 理 in the word? The usage of 原理 is tied to 原理血戒, not the other way around.

I'm not trying to entirely shoot down these ideas. I think there are some part that are quite valid. But I don't think I could argue it in this particular manner.

[Crown]

I like Saiki's dialogues. I approve of this new character. Good job Nasu. Can't say the same about Arach though.

Noel's scene after school was hot too.

Do I actually get a chance to see Sacchin at the restaurant later on? It's a shame because I really wanted to spend time with her.

[Sssgth]

Pleasantly surprised that my being blatantly wrong didn’t lead to receiving ad hominem attacks or getting outright banned. It’s pretty nice here

[Lily Emilio]

Well, yes. I think I'm starting to get the nature of our misunderstanding. But then I have to ask, if "I never said Idea Blood is something like 人理." then why argue it from the point of the usage of 理 in the word? The usage of 原理 is tied to 原理血戒, not the other way around.

I didn't tho? Reread all of what I said including that original post. Never once in my replies to you that I dissected 原理 into 原 and 理 to talk about them separately. If I did, you would get an argument about how it might be a combination of X term having the kanji 原 and Y term having the kanji 理. None of that was the case.

I think you got the wrong idea of what I said in my original post that caused the discussion, and it's partially my fault for not being clear. I was explaining Human Order 人理, which is a made up word, so I added that it shares the 理 from Idea Blood's 原理 , basically I am trying to explain that 人理 is kinda like a short form for something like 人類の原理 to clarify its meaning. The whole post was focused on the bold lines about Idea Blood causing singularities and how the foundation of the planet being fragile, leading to my idea about DA's Idea Blood being able to fuck over humanity. I should have added that I was thinking about Goetia using the singularities to weaken and make the 人理 collapse in FGO when I read said Idea Blood description. TLDR my line of thought was Idea Blood can cause certain similar effects to the 人理 like Goetia's method, but on individual basis (kinda like Musashi in FGO being a walking singularity but upscale to the roof), and that allows w/e DA's equivalent of 人理 called to takeover.