You get hints of his sane self in stay night. He has traits he could use if not for Mad Enhancement, not the least of which being Nine Lives, he has the capacity to care for Illya, and he would have enjoyed his battle against Archer if he was not mad. So, an "actual Herc" would be one that fits those hints, at least.Originally Posted by Herod
I don't mind that kind of thing as long as there's a story reason for it. Like Hokusai/Oui or Orion/Artemis. If you want to have Van Gogh but not really, maybe use a famous art forger, rather than random minor divinity.
Binged All Of Gundam In 4 Years, 1 Week and All I Got Was This Stupid Mask
FF XIV: Walked to the End
Started Legend of the Galactic Heroes (14/07/23), pray for me.
Maybe 'plain' isn't the best word for it, but maybe I mean something more along the lines of 'obvious' or played out. Like I guess the best example would be their depiction for doing the Count of Monte Cristo the way they did him. They saw that the Gankutsuou version as too iconic and so any sort of attempt at replicating that would be a failure to live up to it, and so they went with a younger Count. I imagine that similar reasons are why certain servants gets a bit pepped up with other things.
There's also a sort of a necessary evil in that if the character writer has some idea they want to implement (other being piggybacked onto this servant, was a remnant of some super giant, alternate universe shenanigans, etc) then some servant has to "take one for the team" so to speak and have their depiction a bit muddled. Admittedly it might be better if they did it with someone less known, but it wouldn't have that shock factor going for it.
One hundred percent this. A lot of the time with Servants who subvert their legends these days, it feels less like the writer had the idea to subvert a specific legend in a specific way, and more like they had an idea for a subversion first, and then just tacked it onto whichever Servant they were assigned to write.
This is something I would've really loved if they did, but also knew they weren't gonna do from the very start. While I'm not in the camp who hates the character or how we were "robbed of real van gogh" or anything, when she straight up in-story says "I'll keep Van Gogh as my name because I am partly him still" that really solidified my disappointment in that they don't do cool stuff with true names and all anymore (in general I'd like that to be brought back cuz it honestly was pretty cool, but then again they're still sticking to "EoR is optional" even though it has some of the most direct relation to the main story).
That seems like a false dichotomy. Have you ever read Valerio Massimo Manfredi's "My name is Nobody"? As the title implies, it's about Odysseus. It's not *the* Odysseus from the Iliad or the Odyssey, it's Manfredi's Odysseus, but it's a new take on the character specifically and all the surrounding stories (including other characters) which is still respectful of Homer's works - he didn't just create an original character and slapped the name of "Odysseus" on him. Unlike, say, "Clytie Van Gogh".
Should've known better than let some Outer God tinkering around with mankind's historical figures. Just because they couldn't get the real deal, they shouldn't be all pragmatic and just patch up some mess to work around it. At least be faithful to the original. Even Clytie herself feels more like a Frankenstein's Monster. No offense to Fran, though.
Let me rephrase then: what is the added value to the story of having the "real" Van Gogh?
Because you are too young. Or too stupid. Or both.
right. adding a sprinkle of sugar to a cesspool of a story doesn't really do much.
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lest we forget, efgeo's literal and figurative value comes not from "story" as some might argue, but from all the standalone saavants people would sell their cars for
All these people complaing about "fake" Van Gogh seems more obsessed to complete their personal collection of historical figures than to read the story.
Because you are too young. Or too stupid. Or both.
lol
Not that hard to also point out that the translators never seem as loud as the complainers. It might be that reading the stories mellows you out more that reading about the stories ideas
Oh, none at all!
I think its less that people are disapointed by clythie not being the real Van Gogh than by the latter likely having lost his chance to appear in Fate.
The impression I got was that van Gogh was chosen as the red herring precisely because he didn't have a chance to appear in the first place.
The value of having one less shitty contrived hackwork of a badly stitched together character, of course.
Last edited by OverMaster; November 26th, 2020 at 08:59 PM.
I wouldn't say it's that we're mellowed out, per se, but a big part is definitely that the big complainers who don't read JP first "consume" the story via botched and disjointed summaries that are already filtered through a negative viewpoint on 4chan or some shit, and so by the time the actual translations come out these people have already made up their mind and it won't actually matter what justification the story has.
This as opposed to just reading it first-hand.
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Yeah, like others have said, there really is no real value to be gained story-wise from having the real Van Gogh instead. If anything it's just a matter of my story vs your story, like when people get mad that a servant isn't like their own servant sheet. I can't imagine the people who ACTUALLY read the event are still mad about it being a "contrived mess because these hack writers don't ever make anything good but im still gonna stick around this fandom day in and day out and complain", and rather that it "took away" the chance for real Van Gogh to be a servant, which like Comun said, he most likely was never gonna be anyway so it literally makes no difference.
In van Gogh's case, that's exactly the impression she meant to give in the event, courtesy of Outer God. It's even lampshaded in-universe.
Something bad on purpose is generally still bad.
Of course to think sometime is terrible and have lots of criticism is still possible even when you're more quiet about it.
If talking to translators in private has taught me anything about it anyway.
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