Heaven's Feel Movies

[Kratosirving]

Dunno if other people have been having difficulties for tickets to actually go on sale, but my closest theater finally popped them up for the 18th. Keep checking if you plan to go!

[Laserman]

Eh, old shame as a concept is perfectly valid. Who we are at particular moments in time influences what we write, and Nasu was a different person back then.

I just don't understand then.

[TheSeaDragon]

There's no reason Nasu couldn't just push the angle he pursued with her in the F/HA finale harder and make her develop strength and confidence as a fighter. Battle Moon Wars is a good example of how Sakura should have been treated all along. Also, ironically, Sakura is probably the least damsel in distress out of the heroines even in the original VN. Looking at the results, Sakura has a far better showing in her route than the other heroines do in theirs; it's just that the narration doesn't glorify her.

Ironically , all of this is true , Rin was a LITERAL damsel in UBW , literally tied, defenseless and had to be saved by a male character. Not a rin dissing, hard facts .

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That's true, but again, even as far as HA, she still doesn't actually have a goal she's pursuing. She isn't the hardcore magus her sister is, magic isn't one of her reasons for being. She doesn't have a great wrong she thinks needs righting like Saber, she doesn't have the vague end goal of "hero" that Shirou's stumbling along towards, still trying to figure out his way, her end goals are "senpai" and "nee-san", and along the way she's learning magic for... some reason. She's... well, she's another regular person, closer to one of us than to the rest of Stay Night, at the end of the day, and that's the opposite of, I think, literally everybody else in the series.



Strength and confidence are almost the opposite of what she was originally written and intended for, even if she had those she'd still be a ways off the lovable weirdoes the rest of the main cast is.

This does not make her "bad" ust different than the other characters. Her goal is basically get a life and be loved, maybe her super dark story is not relatable , but the base of her character certanly is

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

But that wasn't a central aspect of her character, and otherwise, she defied that trope.

[fumei]

I just don't understand then.

Nasu was young when he wrote FSN. He thought what he wrote was good and cool (obviously, since he put it out), like people usually do about their own work. Now he's grown older and general rule of thumb is that when you get older you look back at stuff you did in the past and you think they're shit. Nasu happens to think Sakura was especially shit in this sense. He didn't want HF animated cuz he thought everyone else would see what he saw nowadays, but he was wrong, cuz he's just seeing it through the tint of "ah no not my work from my younger days it's so cringe" while everyone else just saw it as the same thing as always.

Saying that if he doesn't think it's fine now he shouldn't have written it back then doesn't really hold up because in that case you're basically implying that most people do not regret or look back poorly on what they did when they were younger, which is something most people do, and I'm sure you relate to personally as well, even if not about a published work.

[TheSeaDragon]

Didnt said it was . But is true that is not her own rute where she get the most development

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Nasu was young when he wrote FSN. He thought what he wrote was good and cool (obviously, since he put it out), like people usually do about their own work. Now he's grown older and general rule of thumb is that when you get older you look back at stuff you did in the past and you think they're shit. Nasu happens to think Sakura was especially shit in this sense. He didn't want HF animated cuz he thought everyone else would see what he saw nowadays, but he was wrong, cuz he's just seeing it through the tint of "ah no not my work from my younger days it's so cringe" while everyone else just saw it as the same thing as always.

Saying that if he doesn't think it's fine now he shouldn't have written it back then doesn't really hold up because in that case you're basically implying that most people do not regret or look back poorly on what they did when they were younger, which is something most people do, and I'm sure you relate to personally as well, even if not about a published work.

Yep, if you are an author, is relatable, but people who dont write maybe will not get it. The funny thing is thanks to the movies , he basically regret of his regret

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

No, I can definitely relate, even though I have no published works. Just thinking back on my views and interests when I was a tween makes me cringe. Gods, I was such a little edgelord.

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Didnt said it was . But is true that is not her own rute where she get the most development

Not untrue.

[GarlandGreene]

But that wasn't a central aspect of her character, and otherwise, she defied that trope.

The central aspect of her character wasn't even really explored in UBW (It's only in HF that she has some semblance of a character arc). She contributed to the route by bringing out Shirou and Archer's development and backstory in a natural manner but that's pretty much it. Other than that, you have the generic tsundere outbursts (which the anime emphasized times 10) but I'd hardly call that any significant character trait.

Nasu was young when he wrote FSN. He thought what he wrote was good and cool (obviously, since he put it out), like people usually do about their own work. Now he's grown older and general rule of thumb is that when you get older you look back at stuff you did in the past and you think they're shit.

He's just going through his Archer phase.

[fumei]

No, I can definitely relate, even though I have no published works. Just thinking back on my views and interests when I was a tween makes me cringe. Gods, I was such a little edgelord.

Yeah I get this just from looking at another forum I used to be on like 10 years ago and I hate what old me sounded like.

[warellis]

That's true, but again, even as far as HA, she still doesn't actually have a goal she's pursuing. She isn't the hardcore magus her sister is, magic isn't one of her reasons for being. She doesn't have a great wrong she thinks needs righting like Saber, she doesn't have the vague end goal of "hero" that Shirou's stumbling along towards, still trying to figure out his way, her end goals are "senpai" and "nee-san", and along the way she's learning magic for... some reason. She's... well, she's another regular person, closer to one of us than to the rest of Stay Night, at the end of the day, and that's the opposite of, I think, literally everybody else in the series.

Strength and confidence are almost the opposite of what she was originally written and intended for, even if she had those she'd still be a ways off the lovable weirdoes the rest of the main cast is.

Honestly, in Heaven's Feel, it kind of always felt like to me that Sakura was designed almost to make Shirou lose his original dreams. And I feel Sakura sort of was all take no give in HF. Like Shirou and others sacrificed themselves for Sakura there, but what did she sacrifice for them?

Also Sakura feels a lot more needy compared to the two otuer girls.

And here is that old quote of yours:

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Except for the real weirdoes, it's got nothing to do with disliking Sakura, or because she isn't a virgin, or whatever. FSN is all about... how do I put this, people with agency, it's all extraordinary people and extraordinary situations and everybody's running around trying to grab hold of this wish, or that miracle, or trying to achieve things, or just trying to prove themselves, to themselves.

Saber? Physically one of the strongest people in the entire franchise, even after all the powerlevels inflation that's gone on since original Fate. She's stoic, and pleasant, and absolutely will not hesitate to kick the arse of anybody, up to and including several demigods stronger than her.

Rin? A prodigy, a magus in secret, in charge of her own house, walks into the Holy Grail War not because she wants a wish, but, to use her own words, because there's a fight to be fought.

Then there's Sakura, and she's kinda out of place, her route exists for Shirou to turn against what he once believed in, she's forbidden by the Almighty Plot from actually being a fighter, or a doer, or much of anything besides being the damsel, and later, the villain who's also the damsel. It isn't dislike so much as it is indifference.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

The central aspect of her character wasn't even really explored in UBW (It's only in HF that she has some semblance of a character arc). She contributed to the route by bringing out Shirou and Archer's development and backstory in a natural manner but that's pretty much it. Other than that, you have the generic tsundere outbursts (which the anime emphasized times 10) but I'd hardly call that any significant character trait.

Do not disagree with you there, but UBW is still my favorite route.

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Also, I'd say Rin's character arc existed outside HF, but it was more subtle and less expansive. Probably because she wasn't the focus of Fate or UBW. Tbh, I think both she and Saber went through their main character arcs more subtly and with less focus in UBW.

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Honestly, in Heaven's Feel, it kind of always felt like to me that Sakura was designed almost to make Shirou lose his original dreams. And I feel Sakura sort of was all take no give in HF. Like Shirou and others sacrificed themselves for Sakura there, but what did she sacrifice for them?

Also Sakura feels a lot more needy compared to the two otuer girls.

And here is that old quote of yours:

Can't disagree, and younger Nasu's grimdark tendencies show in how he wrote Sakura, but I personally think her struggle was one for and against agency. On one hand, the plot enforces damsel status on her, and she is afraid to take agency because that makes her the villain. On the other, she struggles because she is inspired by Shirou to want something more with her life, even if she doesn't know what it is other than senpai, and the plot only goes forward because of her choices, despite her being the damsel.

[GarlandGreene]

And I feel Sakura sort of was all take no give in HF. Like Shirou and others sacrificed themselves for Sakura there, but what did she sacrifice for them? Also Sakura feels a lot more needy compared to the two otuer girls.

Well considering her past and inheritance from her original family (which is absolutely fuck all), it wouldn't exactly be a surprise that her level of self-esteem would be considerably lower than the other two action heroines that came before her which might explain that she's more "needy". At the end of the day, she did give Shirou a chance of a normal life rather than stubbornly following an impossible goal which will most likely end up in tears (As much as UBW wants to tell us that he won't regret his path, it's still a figurative solution that's based on ideals rather than reality). Sakura is the one who made him stop, turn around and look back at what his life could be rather than adamantly moving forward. Plus, after almost 40 hours worth of reading of being brushed aside as mere background scenery or the unsuccessful childhood friend, she finally gets her turn to be in the spotlight. As much as Shirou gets the girl, HF is about Sakura getting the guy, being finally triumphant and able to openly express her feelings after being locked out all this time.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

UBW is more a mindset change than anything else, with Shirou choosing to focus on the journey as opposed to the destination, which is far less likely to end in years. Moreover, he has Rin as a human handbrake, and he came into his own powers more than he did in HF or Fate.

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Also, while Shirou's mental state does improve in HF, I'd argue that he simply transfers his zeal from the many to the one. He is Sakura's champion, and both are each other's reason for living.

[GarlandGreene]

both are each other's reason for living.

In the case of Shirou, it's not just living for Sakura but to keep on living period. For once, he's actually valuing his own life rather than blindly putting others' lives before him. It's also partly why a certain scene involving the titular "Heaven's Feel" is as heartbreaking as it is.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

True.

[TheSeaDragon]

In the case of Shirou, it's not just living for Sakura but to keep on living period. For once, he's actually valuing his own life rather than blindly putting others' lives before him. It's also partly why a certain scene involving the titular "Heaven's Feel" is as heartbreaking as it is.

True, and thats other reason i dont like the normal end , shirou ends as martyr again, not for the many but for one, wich kinda makes the rute pointless . In true, we finaly see him keep on living, for sakura, yeah, but finally also for himself

[Inuhanyou]

Thats the whole point of the route, largely a bookend to the trajectory the routes go for regarding Shirou going from a machine to a "person".

Of course i have my issues with this as it leads to the sentiment of delegitimizing the growth of the Shirous in the other routes. But basically it gets the issue across. Beginning of story shirou = bad, end of story shirou = good.

I dont think nasu should have been ashamed of how he wrote sakura in fsn. Do i like fha sakura a million times better? Yes absolutely. Is fsn Sakura my least favorite heroine? Also yes.

But the fact of the matter is that she had a role to play in the narrative and she played it well. She doesnt have to be an Arturia or a Rin type of character to be acceptable.


To begin with from the outset nobody, especially the writer themselves, should stew on the assumption that characters should be liked by everyone. Goodness knows my favorite characters from this franchise have enough haters as it is, but thats their right even if i may dislike that

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Everyone keeps building up FHA Sakura. I definitely need to play after Election Day...somehow

[Altima of the Gates]

That's true, but again, even as far as HA, she still doesn't actually have a goal she's pursuing. She isn't the hardcore magus her sister is, magic isn't one of her reasons for being. She doesn't have a great wrong she thinks needs righting like Saber, she doesn't have the vague end goal of "hero" that Shirou's stumbling along towards, still trying to figure out his way, her end goals are "senpai" and "nee-san", and along the way she's learning magic for... some reason. She's... well, she's another regular person, closer to one of us than to the rest of Stay Night, at the end of the day, and that's the opposite of, I think, literally everybody else in the series.

Strength and confidence are almost the opposite of what she was originally written and intended for, even if she had those she'd still be a ways off the lovable weirdoes the rest of the main cast is.

Actually there are a few things to consider here. Unlike Rin, who mainly has her life painted by the numbers for her and has innumerable choices to take based on that clear roadway, Sakura was always in very tense situation where everything fell upon her to decide. She has a lot of potential, but very much has to scrape together bits and pieces and essentially start over from scratch to find her own way. Her body which was suited for one house's magecraft, was half-assedly changed, so it'll be that much harder despite her bloods potential to get results, not even getting into the fact of not having the same tutelage Rin would have or the family headship that was supposed to be protecting her and reason for the adoption in the first place.
For that matter though, she does find her own mentor, on her own, and goes through with trying to get back into magecraft despite nobody blaming her if she wanted to wash her hands of it, though one could interpret it as her knowing she can't fully turn away from magecraft due to how their world works and how oddities can find you if you're an individual with ability. As for her outlook on it, I think she sees magecraft as a tool, not the life's work that Rin does, but with the mentality of someone that understands what beings a magus is, so not really a regular person, but someone who wants to have peace in her life, knowing how harsh this life can be.
It would be wrong to think the only viable way for one of the magus characters to be explored is if they are deeply into research or on battlefields all the time. However, that also doesn't mean she can't get involved in those types of stories, there is honestly too many things she can get into. The fact she even found her own mentor means she has initiative. Its just that, unlike Shirou and Rin, she doesn't immediately have someone that instilled that spark, so she is feelings things out at the moment. But considering she is friends with a foreign bishop of the church, there are a few hooks one can use.

Everyone keeps building up FHA Sakura. I definitely need to play after Election Day...somehow

There are very good parts that aren't talked about often, like Sakura seducing the pants off Shirou and making him spill spaghetti all over feeding him crepes, asking one of her kouhai to take a couple photo of them.
Though, even if I liked the stinct in the Broad Bridge battle, I feel Nasu sabotaged her moment there, even if my favorite avatar is based on that. Hearing him speak out like this for HF3 is making me rethink a lot of what methodology was going through his head over the years. He says imo that she became more heroine like in Hollow, but then why make her action debut so positively self-flagellating toward the end? Why was CCC necessary if the job was done back then? Does this have anything to do with why Parvati is not given the gusto Ishtar and Eresh have? So many questions. I'd love to sit the man down and tell him to just allow the cool stuff you start with Sakura. There was no reason not to have a Team Purple dive bomb with void portal spam on Pegasus' back, just...what the hell man, Medusa even suggests picking her up and going on Pegasus in the scene and you don't fucking do it.

[TheSeaDragon]

Thats the whole point of the route, largely a bookend to the trajectory the routes go for regarding Shirou going from a machine to a "person".

Of course i have my issues with this as it leads to the sentiment of delegitimizing the growth of the Shirous in the other routes. But basically it gets the issue across. Beginning of story shirou = bad, end of story shirou = good.

I dont think nasu should have been ashamed of how he wrote sakura in fsn. Do i like fha sakura a million times better? Yes absolutely. Is fsn Sakura my least favorite heroine? Also yes.

But the fact of the matter is that she had a role to play in the narrative and she played it well. She doesnt have to be an Arturia or a Rin type of character to be acceptable.


To begin with from the outset nobody, especially the writer themselves, should stew on the assumption that characters should be liked by everyone. Goodness knows my favorite characters from this franchise have enough haters as it is, but thats their right even if i may dislike that

Good to see someone who does not have her as favourite but understand her role

I would like some "action" moments with her like in HA final battle? Sure, but we dont need a rin clone when we already have rin. Variety on character types is never bad