Hannibal won the Battle of Cannae, one of the most impressive battles in history period. I think it's reasonable, if a bit much, for him to have A+ Tactics.
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Thanks!Originally Posted by Council
Hannibal won the Battle of Cannae, one of the most impressive battles in history period. I think it's reasonable, if a bit much, for him to have A+ Tactics.
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Thanks!
I disagree. Military Tactics is an ability of high tactical knowledge for battles where many people are utilized for combat. There is nothing stated that supports a high rank in this skill via never losing a battle, and I'm saying this assuming what you stated is your opinion. If it is a source, I would love to see it.
In regards to Hannibal possessing an A+ rank, I personally think it is within the realm of reason, worthy for someone who is at least top 10 (can be argued top 5) all time for greatest military commander/general in history. He displayed tactics that were widely famous in military combat even up to the present time and had mind-blowing results people back then couldn't even imagine; in fact, people today analyzing these tactics from a perspective of modern era combat can still appreciate its effectiveness. That was how good Hannibal's tactics are: it built a legacy that continues onto today.
Last edited by Clyton; May 28th, 2015 at 07:20 PM.
I won't pretend to be an expert on military history, but Hannibal's tactics being studied today is nothing special. Alexander's are too, and they were much more successful, but he only has a B rank.
Sun Tzu servant? another instence where a skill becomes a NP.
Highest Military Tactics I can think of is probably Subutai
I have to agree that Mr. Art of War is probably the Highest Military Tactics even if he is probably a fictional dude.
How the hell is he fictional? What are you smoking. He was a real general that wrote a book.
Sun Tzu's historicity is uncertain. Sima Qian and other traditional historians placed him as a minister to King Helü of Wu and dated his lifetime to 544–496 BC. Modern scholars accepting his historicity nonetheless place the existing text of The Art of War in the later Warring States period based upon its style of composition and its descriptions of warfare.The oldest available sources disagree as to where Sun Tzu was born. The Spring and Autumn Annals states that Sun Tzu was born in Qi,[8] while Sima Qian's later Records of the Grand Historian states that Sun Tzu was a native of Wu..Skeptics cite possible historical inaccuracies and anachronisms in the text, as well as the likelihood of the execution of the king's favorite concubines.[citation needed] This skepticism, which sometimes cause scholars to completely deny the existence of a historical figure named Sun Wu, has led to acrimonious debate between skeptics and traditionalists, especially in China. Attribution of the authorship of The Art of War varies among scholars and has included people and movements including Sun; Chu scholar Wu Zixu; an anonymous author; a school of theorists in Qi or Wu; Sun Bin; and others.
Last edited by Christemo; May 28th, 2015 at 08:15 PM.
He's possibly fictional much like Sasaki Kojirou is fictional. There's stuff that doesn't line up that suggests a "real person" and "what we know" disconnect.
Localizationing stuff
That only questions WHEN he lived not if he existed. Some one had to have written the book otherwise it wouldn't exist. It's also very old so there would be inconsistencies.
Just like Sasaki Kojirou as a person and the guy that did Tsubame Gaeshi separately existed.
Localizationing stuff
That someone doesnt have to be Sun Tzu. Sun Tzu supposedly lived in the 500's BC, yet the Art of War is written akin to books from a period which's beginning his death predates by over 20 years.
It's like claiming Hermes Trismegistus is a real person because the Hermetica is attributed to his name, when he was obviously a fusion of Thoth and Hermes in the Greco-Egyptian period, and the Hermetica was just penned by someone using that name.
Last edited by Christemo; May 28th, 2015 at 08:21 PM.
only 20 years? you know it's not like people only live 19 years and not like idk 40-80 years. Or that it was just re-written. or any number if things
His death predates the beginning of the Warring States Period by 20 years, he never lived to see it.
Regardless you can't with any kind of certainty claim Sun Tzu is a real person.
Err..?o.o
Spoiler:
We have two Servants who have Military Tactics, each B Rank, and none of the two lost a battle. I don't know how was I supposed to miss them.
They are the only ones we have for comparison for our own works. Their capabilities at their Rank should be what you use as a basis.
I believe the above is what Christemo refers to as fanwank.In regards to Hannibal possessing an A+ rank, I personally think it is within the realm of reason, worthy for someone who is at least top 10 (can be argued top 5) all time for greatest military commander/general in history. He displayed tactics that were widely famous in military combat even up to the present time and had mind-blowing results people back then couldn't even imagine; in fact, people today analyzing these tactics from a perspective of modern era combat can still appreciate its effectiveness. That was how good Hannibal's tactics are: it built a legacy that continues onto today.
First and foremost, every decent to good general is studied by modern military and historians. Regardless of their age. Such is basic routine practice, not some badge of honor they reserve for an arbitrary top ten. Soldiers don't make lists. You can learn new ideas from everyone.
What history books did you read? The man fought a defensive war with bad odds. Outnumbered more with each war, and he did a great job with what he had at hand. He has shown some military genius on the occassion. He worked for his footnote in history, for certain.
But had he not been a stepping stone to one of the most influential empires in the world, we would not remember him. He is made famous by his enemies. He's otherwise a nobody. He has fought the Romans and didn't fail as spectacular as everyone else did. He has lost his fair share of battles, AND every notable war. He was just a good commander.
To raise him on the same level as Iskandar is already generous. More of a result of the modern perception of him than anything else. Let alone higher.
<3
As was said above, he had his moments of genius. Maybe he had a hidden potential he could have developed into the best military skill in history. We don't know, but one fantastic battle won is not indicative of anything. To be honest, envelopment is a step you'd expect your opponent to try. In the specific situation, too, the tactic was foreseeable and countermeasures were a possibility even while the battle raged on with a decent chain of command. The victory was more of a combination of Hannibal's skill and Varro's ineptitude. The eastern wind to bring dust into the Roman's eyes in an area where western winds are dominant was also rather fortunate for him.Hannibal won the Battle of Cannae, one of the most impressive battles in history period. I think it's reasonable, if a bit much, for him to have A+ Tactics.
In short, the battle was impressive, and far more than the orchestrator.
Last edited by Council; May 29th, 2015 at 02:16 AM.
They are a family in the end<3
I have commited a horrible crime.
; - ;
And thus, my horrible attempt at comedy ends, and I must leave the stage.Err..?o.o
Spoiler:
We have two Servants who have Military Tactics, each B Rank, and none of the two lost a battle. I don't know how was I supposed to miss them.
They are the only ones we have for comparison for our own works. Their capabilities at their Rank should be what you use as a basis.
Obviously! Tactics such as attacking the enemy lines before they are ready or maneuvering a small portion of an army into an area the enemy least expects for a flank attack are worthy of obtaining a B-Rank Military Tactics skill (these are just hypothetical standards, and in my opinions). Having a 100% win rate in all battles is not the indicator that they have a B rank in that skill. For example, if a relatively unknown general wins one single battle through a common tactic such as an ambush, never participates again and boasts his perfect win rate, would he get a B rank Military Tactic skill under the Servant system? Cause you imply that is the case.
And Nobunaga did lose some battles in his career.
I believe the above is what Christemo refers to as fanwank.
I'm glad you noticedGotta force a discussion!
First and foremost, every decent to good general is studied by modern military and historians. Regardless of their age. Such is basic routine practice, not some badge of honor they reserve for an arbitrary top ten. Soldiers don't make lists. You can learn new ideas from everyone.
What history books did you read? *Wikipedia!*
The man fought a defensive war with bad odds. Outnumbered more with each war, and he did a great job with what he had at hand. He has shown some military genius on the occasion. He worked for his footnote in history, for certain. But had he not been a stepping stone to one of the most influential empires in the world, we would not remember him. He is made famous by his enemies. Well, that's good!
He's otherwise a nobody. He has fought the Romans and didn't fail as spectacular as everyone else did. He has lost his fair share of battles, AND every notable war. He was just a good commander.
To raise him on the same level as Iskandar is already generous. More of a result of the modern perception of him than anything else. Let alone higher.
And fortunately, that is fine. The world has already overhyped his achievements and legacy. The Throne of Heroes says "you see all that wanking the historians/soldiers/humans are doing to Hannibal? Let's give him at least an equivalent rank of Military Tactics as Iskandar's in response to all this recognition, even if in reality he doesn't deserve it!" Cause of course, the perception and fame of the hero in question adds greatly to the finalized Servant skill set a Heroic Spirit receives. Even if A+ is the most unreasonable within the realm of reason, a B rank for Hannibal's Military Tactics certainly isn't. A great insult to Rider who, in life, never lost a battle. But whoever said win rates in their military campaign has more influence over their usage and display of superb "military tactics?" *shrugs*
<3
As was said above, he had his moments of genius. Maybe he had a hidden potential he could have developed into the best military skill in history. We don't know, but one fantastic battle won is not indicative of anything. To be honest, envelopment is a step you'd expect your opponent to try. In the specific situation, too, the tactic was foreseeable and countermeasures were a possibility even while the battle raged on with a decent chain of command. The victory was more of a combination of Hannibal's skill and Varro's ineptitude. The eastern wind to bring dust into the Roman's eyes in an area where western winds are dominant was also rather fortunate for him. I'll keep that in mind when I raise his Luck statistic
In short, the battle was impressive, and far more than the orchestrator.
Last edited by Clyton; May 29th, 2015 at 03:47 AM.
Caster
Gender: Female
STR: E
END: E
AGI: D
MAG: A+
LUCK: A
NP: A
Class Skills
Territory Creation (X): Caster’s Temple of Apollo Noble Phantasm replaces this skill.
Item Construction (B): The ability to create magical items. Caster specializes in creating devices that enhance divination techniques, as well as potions that can induce trances.
Personal Skills
Premonition (A+): The ability to divine the future. As an Oracle, Caster’s holds the highest rank possible of this skill. She is able to accurately divine the future, with her predictions changing events from possibility to certainty. Whatever she predicts will happen.
Mental Pollution (X/A): The mind has become distorted. Provides protection against mental thaumaturgy. Caster normally has no rank in this skill, however she gains an A rank whenever she predicts something, due to the hallucinogenic trance she must enter to see the future. Though her prophecies are invariably accurate, interpreting them in a way that will be helpful proves troublesome.
Divine Favour (B): As a high priestess of the god Apollo, Caster’s magecraft is based on his powers. Apollo is the god of light, prophecy, medicine, disease, the creative arts and sport. In dangerous situations, Caster also gains a rank up to all stats except Luck.
Noble Phantasms
Temple of Apollo – The Temple of Light (Anti-Territory, B): The temple at Delphi that honoured the god Apollo. By invoking this Noble Phantasm, Caster can claim an area equivalent to an A-rank in Territory Creation. Within, her powers of foresight increase in magnitude. An undying flame burns at the heart of the temple, which Caster can use as a source of prana.
Python – The Earth Serpent (Anti-Army, A): The monstrous earth dragon that Apollo slew at Delphi, who was then buried beneath the foundations of the Temple. By using the bones as a catalyst, Caster can resurrect the Python under her control. A low-ranking Phantasmal Beast, it is still nonetheless a threatening opponent.
Black Books – The Oracle’s Texts (Support, E): A Noble Phantasm that automatically records the prophecies Caster makes. It can only record, and is therefore only useful as a frame of reference.
Notes
I'm not too happy with this one. I feel like it's even less than my usual efforts, but I can't think of anything else to do with it.
Relatively simple but I'm surprised no one else has done her yet.
Thanks for reminding me that my Hannibal sheet was almost finished, nerds. Three hour ferry ride = polished up sheet. The FiveX Batsignal has been lit.
Hannibal Barca
Father of Strategy
Class: Rider
Alternate Classes: None
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Parameters:
Strength: C
Endurance: B
Agility: D
Mana: D
Luck: B
Class Skills:
Riding
The ability to ride animals or vehicles with extraordinary skill.
● C: Rider is able to ride natural beasts of any sort, but not most Phantasmal Beasts.
Magic Resistance
Unlike the basic concept of rejection of prana through standard principles of Resistance, this ability is the complete nullification of magical spells and effects.
● D: Cancel Single-Action Spells. Cannot defend against significant Thaumaturgy at any level, being more akin to the resistance provided by a high-quality amulet of magical rejection.
Personal Skills:
Administration
Through clever and skillful management and logistics, it is possible to accumulate substantial resources and influence.
● B: After losing the war waged against the Roman Republic, Carthage was left on the brink of bankruptcy, but within a decade Rider was able to revive the Carthaginian fortunes to their pre-war strengths. In conjunction with his Charisma and Logistics skills, Rider can use Administration to gain substantial power and allies, and is masterful at organisation and execution of strategies, making even relatively mundane methods and strategies notably more effective than they would normally be, in all walks of life.
Charisma
The natural talent to command an army. Increases the abilities of allies in group battles, Charisma is a rare ability.
● B: A suitable level of Charisma for the king of a country. Rider utilises this good level of Charisma to entice others to join his ranks through honour duels or savvy politicking, and his soldiers remain loyal to him even in dire situations due to this skill.
Linguistic Legacy
Through the generations, tales of your deeds have been passed down in such a way that you continue to exist in the minds of a population through common phrases or idioms.
● C: Rider was such a dangerous adversary to the Roman Republic that a common phrase in the Roman lexicon was “Hannibal ante portas”, meaning “Hannibal is at the gates!” as a way of expressing looming danger and anxiety towards future events. A mid-level mental interference effect is present in the minds of those who are not allies of Rider, whenever he is within a kilometer of their position. This mental interference causes sensations of uneasiness and disruption that may interrupt certain technical skills or drain morale.
Logistics
Intelligent use of available resources lowers the strain of the cost of maintaining or activating certain abilities.
● A: Strategic utility of supply lines, exploitation of local resources and canny management of personal rations allows for the most efficient use of abilities possible, reducing their overall cost to execute by 50%. At this rank Logistics can be considered comparable to Independent Action alongside its other benefits.
Undying Promise
A sworn oath that must be upheld at all times.
● B: At the age of nine, Rider swore an oath to his father that he would never be a friend to the Romans, after the results of the First Punic War and the Mercenary War had jaded his father to the idea of peace with the Roman Republic. Whenever Rider faces an opponent of Roman heritage he gains a Rank Up to his Physical Parameters. If at any time he does ally himself with a Roman, even if forced to by circumstances, he loses three Ranks to his Luck Parameter and a Rank to his Noble Phantasms, instead.
General of Unity
Army of A Thousand Nations
Type: Anti-Army
Rank: C
Range: ~
Targets: 1-9999
Description: During the early periods of his various campaigns against Rome, Rider was afforded the wealth of the Carthaginian financial empire in order to purchase mercenaries to act as soldiers in his employ, and he utilised these mercenaries to great effect. However, as his campaigns drew on and the financial support of the distant Carthage dwindled, he was instead forced to supplement his numbers through other methods.
Fortunately, Rider’s charisma and earnest management of his men drew others to him and he would regularly end up recruiting soldiers from the various Italic tribes that he defeated as he moved through the Italian peninsula. Often he would personally duel the leader of a tribe with the condition that the tribe’s soldiers would fall under Rider’s employ if the tribal commander was beaten, and no commander reneged on their agreements with him after being defeated, thanks to his outstanding leadership capabilities. Even in times of financial hardship, when he was unable to offer payment to those who would serve him, the nature of Rider as a leader and a man was just too enticing for most soldiers to refuse, and they would continue to serve him loyally throughout the entirety of his long and exhausting campaigns against the Roman Republic.
General of Unity crystallises as a nigh-preternatural ability to coax others to fight alongside Rider, and equip them for battle. As long as objectives or natures do not run substantially counter to Rider’s own it is possible for him to enact Luck checks against his own Luck Parameter to employ those he appeals to for assistance, with bonuses to the check provided by his level of Charisma. If the target is someone that Rider or his allies have defeated in combat through Rider’s own strategies then recruitment is guaranteed if the defeated party is not completely opposed to recruitment for ideological reasons. In any case, once Rider has successfully enlisted soldiers into his army they receive a small portion of his mana, providing basic level reinforcement of their parameters and imbuing their weapons with the spiritual nature necessary to injure Ghost Liners and other similar familiars.
Though ordinary human combatants are no match for a Servant one-on-one even with these enhancements, General of Unity brings them up to a level comparable to battle familiars, golems or homunculi, and in great numbers the effectiveness of soldiers in the employ of Rider cannot be underestimated, particularly with his various other skills supporting them. Unfortunately, due to the constant provision of prana to his soldiers to keep their battle capabilities at acceptable levels, Rider tends to draw on increasingly large sums of magical energy to keep his army going, so his Logistics skill becomes vitally important as any war grinds onwards.
Surus
The One-Tusked Beast
Type: Anti-Barrier/Anti-Army
Rank: B
Range: 2-30
Targets: 1-25
Description: One of the most famous of Rider’s tactics was his highly effective use of war-elephants, which were regularly used as shocktroopers to break apart enemy formations. Indeed, his feat of bringing war-elephants over the Alps during his arduous crossing is one of the most recognised of his actions among the general populus. Because of his close association with the image of the war-elephant, it should be no surprise that his mount as a Rider-class Servant is one of these powerful beasts.
Rider is able to expend a moderate amount of magical energy to call forth his personal war-elephant, Surus. A mighty steed who has endured many campaigns and battles, Surus is hardy and striking, with its single sharp tusk and its blood-red armour. Surus is a descendant of the grand elephants of Syria, themselves descended from animals in Alexander the Great’s forces, and so it is fitting that conquest and battle are his lifeblood. Having accumulated enough mystery and fame as the last and greatest of Rider’s elephants, Surus has risen to a level comparable to a Magical Beast, and thus is far more powerful than any modern-day elephant would be.
While not especially fast for the most part, nor very agile at all, Surus has an exceedingly high AC rating and can endure most attacks with ease. It bears general Anti-Magic properties that it can utilise during charges to break through magical defenses and barriers, being specialised towards this latter task. Surus is only able to charge in a straight line and only has medium-range coverage with its charge, but it becomes like a battering ram surrounded by pure magical force when it does charge, its singular tusk acting as a wallbreaker of a high calibre.
Surus is more than simply a weapon for Rider, acting as a logistical and strategic mobile command centre for him. Utilising Surus’ trumpeting as messages allows Rider to convey messages with great effect to all of his troops on the battlefield, granting him Battle Coordination at Rank C, which in turn enhances the effects of his Administration and Charisma skills. Due to his raised vantage point Rider is able to survey the battlefield effectively, gaining Clairvoyance Rank D, and the boldly-decorated armor of Surus bears the symbols of Carthage upon it, granting the Parameter-boosting Standard Bearer skill at Rank D. Surus itself has Rank A Magic Resistance, Rank B Dread Scream and Rank C Unshakeable Defense as Personal Skills.
Class: Caster
True Name: Niccolò Paganini, The Devil’s Violinist
Alignment: (Chaotic) Neutral
Likes: gambling.
Talents: playing the violin.
Natural Enemy: Berserker
Image Color: black, rigorously black.
STR: E MGI: D END: E LCK: C AGI: E NP: C
Background:_______________________________________ ___________________________________
Handsome and Cursed.
Spoiler:
Class and Personal Skills:___________________________________________ ________________________
Item Construction: C-
The skill to manufacture magical items.
Territory Creation: A
The skill to build a special terrain that is advantageous to oneself as a magus. It allows Caster to assemble an “absolute artistic zone” that gives the user an advantage, rather like Nero’s Aestus Domus Aurea.
Faustian Pact: C
Demons. Devils. Imaginary beings who are naturally empathetic and sympathetic towards mankind. That is why they take away people’s pains for themselves and why the relationship between a possessed individual and his demon can be seen as a contract working under the terms of equivalent exchange: to compensate for devouring his soul the demon put his powers at the service of his host. The natural ability of an imaginary demon is a Reality Marble and at the same time it is the alien common sense of demons.
Noble Phantasms:________________________________________ _________________________________
Infernaldivino: The Devil’s Music
Rank: C
Type: Anti-Unit
“Is this a dead man who has risen from the grave, a vampire with a violin?”
(Heinrich Heine)
“Sell all your possession, pawn everything, but go to hear him. This is the most astounding, the most surprising, the most wonderful, the most miraculous, the most triumphant, the most bewildering, the most incredible, the most extraordinary and the most unexpected thing that ever happened. In a dream Tartini saw a devil playing a diabolic sonata, that devil was surely Paganini”
(Françoise Castil-Blase, Paris, 1831)
The hypnotic music played by Paganini. Rather than a fixed arrangement, its enchanting score is improvised by Caster in a different way every time, thus preventing loss of effectiveness in front of the harder audience. It is actually a work of thaumaturgy, and the medium through which Caster’s magic is manifested, capable to bewitch the souls and feelings of the listeners, brainwashing them through the action of the bow, almost moving like a magical wand... a truly diabolical technique, the work of a psychic vampire that drains the victims not of blood, but soul and at the same time, invigorating them.
It’s a soul message, a communication of musical notes forged inside Caster’s troubled soul, a pure conveyance from his spirit to the souls of the audience.
Admittedly though, its effectiveness decreases as the public lacks artistic tendencies.
Paganini Non Ripete: For Tonight’s Only
Rank: D
Type: Anti-Unit (Support)
“The electricity I feel in dealing with the magical harmony hurts me horribly; but from my sound flows true magic that I do not know how nor dare to describe”
A statement of Paganini’s skill and philosophy of playing.
This was Paganini’s best “trick”; on the stage, the orchestra starts playing, and Paganini unleashes from his violin a celestial music. When suddenly, a noise interrupts the audience’s rapture: one cord is broken! The audience holds its breath and the orchestra stops playing... but not Paganini, who undismayed keeps playing, snatching lovely sounds from the musical instrument. But the joy of the audience doesn’t last long, when a second string snaps: the leader stops the orchestra once again; Paganini doesn’t stop, and keeps pulling out notes from the remaining cords. As if nothing happened, he keeps playing at the limits of human talent, unfazed by difficulties.
And then a third cord! Both the orchestra and the audience are paralyzed, but Paganini continues. Squeezing out every remaining note from the last cord of Sol, not one note is omitted, and with this the performance finally ends.
A showmanship of both his talent and way of the virtuoso, in which he pushed what is possible to the limit of the instrument and his body. As a matter of fact, Paganini’s exhibitions were so energetic, that often featured the snapping of cords. He put so much passion and emotion that his fingertips would get injured to the point of bleeding. Not just a genius or an artist, but a true professional that keeps advancing despite the hardships, playing with his entire being on the bow and cords. Because of this, at the end of a performance in Turin, when king Carlo Felice of Savoy requested the maestro to repeat one of the pieces he played, Paganini defiantly and categorically answered:
“Paganini does not repeat.”
As a Noble Phantasm, it prevents Caster’s exhibition from being interrupted, ending only when Caster himself wishes so, while the audience is enchanted into listening to the full piece from start to finish, without the ability to alter it in any way. This Noble Phantasm is however only activable inside Caster’s Territory.
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________
After writers and a painter, why not a musician?
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