They're the same scene lol.Originally Posted by SpoonyViking
Honestly a lot of what we know about Shinji's feelings towards Shirou is just told to us by Sakura in like the first 3 days of the game.
"nii-san's mad at you senpai he thinks you're still fighting" "nii-san actually likes you more than anyone else senpai he just can't show it" "don't get too mad at him senpai, you're his only friend" wow thanks Wakame Whisperer
I don't like him as a person or a character.
He's more of a collection of negative traits than a real character, which turns him into this absurdly evil Saturday morning cartoon character who I can't take seriously anymore, but that's a problem with the Matou family in general. Nasu really needed to pump the breaks on how evil/tragic they were. HF felt like Nasu holding up a megaphone and screaming, "LOOK AT HOW SAD THIS IS! ISN'T IT SAD? YOU SHOULD FEEL SAD!"
Since the original VN, Shinji has been reduced mostly to a joke character, but even that doesn't work when he spent so much time trying to top his own repulsive acts. He tries to melt everyone in school. He tries to murder his old best friend and clearly enjoys it. He's a serial rapist.
Sure, there's something to be said for the environment he was raised in and the toxicity of magi culture, but he's old enough by the time we meet him to realize what he is doing is wrong. Torturing Sakura doesn't grant him the Magic Circuits he craves or make him any better, and that's one of the reasons I came to find Zouken so interesting. Whereas Shinji seems to feel like Sakura owes it to him to suffer his rage to make him feel better, Zouken doesn't make any bones about it. He does horrible things because they serve his goals and makes no excuses for how someone robbed him of his place in the family or how he's doing the evil thing to bring about a greater good. Zouken is evil and knows it (or at least doesn't care). Shinji is laboring under the delusion that he's owed something and is justified in acting this way. He is weak of mind.
Spoiler:
I used to find Zouken interesting until I reread HF and remembered all the times he went "no Hassan, let's not be practical, let's stand around and laugh evilly instead"
i like zouken because he's cute.
Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.
The guy's basically nuts,what do you expect
Oh, yeah. I can definitely see where Shinji gets it from. It's a wonder Zouken doesn't grow out a long, thing mustache so he can stroke it malevolently as Shinji ties Sakura to the train tracks.
Spoiler:
did you miss the part where it is revealed he is actually just senile
Yeah, he wanted to save humanity just like our boy Shirou. He's another dark future like EMIYA.
But that was forgotten so long ago that it's not even his motivation by the time we meet him. He's gone full evil mastermind.
Judging his actions in Zero and Stay Night by the values that no longer have any meaning to him is pointless.
Spoiler:
I believe you. I just didn't remember it :-P
What's a wakame?
Seaweed.
It's his hair.
That just makes Shinji more realistic. Most people still do things they know are wrong and rationalize it.
He never sleeps. He never dies.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
Teenager vs man who's been alive for several hundred years.
"The Matou lineage was fine, it was just Japan that was bad"Zouken [...] makes no excuses
Sure, people do it all the time. I've done it. That doesn't mean I have to give it a pass.
Still old enough to make decisions for himself
Point
Spoiler:
I don't get how that means it's badly written though. It's relatable. Most people would be like Shinji in his situation.
He never sleeps. He never dies.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.
I didn't say that part of his person was badly written. The small fish in a big pond is an interesting story to tell. I simply don't think Nasu told it well, just as I don't think he told the Shirou and Saber love story very well.
I don't find him relatable because I'm not a spiteful rapist. Not to imply that you or anyone who enjoys him is that sort of thing, but it's hard for me to get behind someone like that. It's part of the reason I don't like Shiki. As soon as Shiki raped Arc -- and Nasu had the nerve to throw in some stupid explanation about how it was her fault she was violated -- I rapidly cooled on Tsukihime and only finished the Arc and Ciel routes. I didn't like the protagonist enough to continue reading anything from his perspective.
I violently reject your notion that most people would be like Shinji in that situation. Kariya walked away from it all, and while he, too, did something awful to a woman in his life after assigning blame, it's still a sign that seeing the evils for what they are and walking away from the family is an acceptable solution for the Matou boys.
Last edited by Imperial; April 6th, 2016 at 04:08 PM.
Spoiler:
Takeuchi: In episode 8 Shinji did a 180 and started seeming cute. As expected, he's still as much of a hopeless character as ever after 10 years.
Nasu: That's a normal high-schooler's mentality. If your long lifetime of ressentiment suddenly turned around and you got power and a hot girl, what would you do?
Takeuchi: Ah... yeah, you really would get kind of "hyahha"...
every teen confirmed for Shinji
That was in reference to the difference in how Shinji and Zouken rationalize what they do.
By this logic, every troubled teenager who went to school in the American Southeast should be a school shooter.
Kids can be cruel. Teenagers do stupid stuff all the time.
But going full Ted Bundy because you had a rough childhood is a pile of bullshit stacked so high I can't even begin to look past it.
Last edited by Imperial; April 6th, 2016 at 04:26 PM.
Spoiler:
Altima brought this up too but I think the difference is that Shinji's whole problem was his inferiority complex, which partly stemmed from Zouken treating him like he was worthless (and the contradiction with his feelings of superiority to the average person). Kariya didn't have that, as far as we know, so he was able to go "this sucks I'm out".
Leaving would require not caring if Zouken disowned him. But if he didn't care about Zouken disowning him then he wouldn't have a problem in the first place so he wouldn't have to leave. so lol
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