Unpopular TM opinions you have

[Rafflesiac]

You know, there's been a recent push that Actually, There's No Time Limit On Servants At All, but I've never seen it from a reputable source. What was the original text on that?

As for Voyager, on one hand I don't like treating humanity reaching space as Heroic Spirit material because that's the achievement of humanity, not of one human. On the other hand, of all modern things to make a Servant reaching space is pretty cool and meaningful, and Voyager was endowed with a literal representation of humanity, so he's acceptable in my book. Better than Charlotte Corday at the least.

FGO throwing open the gates to Servanthood devalues being a Servant pretty heavily, but the real sin is how many scientists were suddenly mages all along. How am I supposed to buy that science will overtake magic and humanity will grow past heroes if every pivotal figure in scientific advancement was secretly a mystery-slinging mage?

[Bookworm Luke]

You know, there's been a recent push that Actually, There's No Time Limit On Servants At All, but I've never seen it from a reputable source. What was the original text on that?

As for Voyager, on one hand I don't like treating humanity reaching space as Heroic Spirit material because that's the achievement of humanity, not of one human. On the other hand, of all modern things to make a Servant reaching space is pretty cool and meaningful, and Voyager was endowed with a literal representation of humanity, so he's acceptable in my book. Better than Charlotte Corday at the least.

FGO throwing open the gates to Servanthood devalues being a Servant pretty heavily, but the real sin is how many scientists were suddenly mages all along. How am I supposed to buy that science will overtake magic and humanity will grow past heroes if every pivotal figure in scientific advancement was secretly a mystery-slinging mage?

It's probably OK.

Heroic Spirits can be based on wild stories and apocrypha.

Like for example Issac Newton is a brilliant scientist, but we know for a fact he dabbled in the occult quite a bit.

You can probably summon him as a Caster based on some wild stories, but that doesn't mean Newton was really a wizard. You are just summoning an aspect of him, an aspect that's really skewed.

[AAM1232]

From the FSN Prologue Day 3.

そうして年代を問わず、近くは百年前、遠くは神代の頃から英霊は召喚された。

Prologue - Day 03 (EN) said:
And irrelevant of era -- from as close as a hundred years prior; or as far as the vicinity of the Age of Divinities -- Heroic Spirits have been summoned forth.

- - - Updated - - -

And not all scientists/writers were mages. Babbage is literally legend sublimated into a RM that he uses as a suit of armour.

[Bookworm Luke]

That's not really proof though. That's where the controversy comes from.

The Japanese basically reads "anytime between 100 years ago to Age of Gods". The irrelevant of era clause does not stand alone.

[AAM1232]

It does though? You can take the time period out and the sentence is fine as is.

[Bookworm Luke]

It does though? You can take the time period out and the sentence is fine as is.

No, it doesn't work that way. In the Japanese text, those are commas indicating they are one sentence.

It's like "Hey man, catch me anytime | between 8am and 5pm."

I am pretty sure BL went through this exercise many times. We had the same discussion when EXTRA Li Shuwen came out.

[Rafflesiac]

From the FSN Prologue Day 3.


Prologue - Day 03 (EN) said:
And irrelevant of era -- from as close as a hundred years prior; or as far as the vicinity of the Age of Divinities -- Heroic Spirits have been summoned forth.

- - - Updated - - -

And not all scientists/writers were mages. Babbage is literally legend sublimated into a RM that he uses as a suit of armour.

"Whether it's from a little bit in the past or a lot in the past, you can pull a Servant." Combine that with other statements on how it's functionally impossible to become an HS thanks to technology and culture shifts and Counter Guardians are still the only future sources of HSs (until LE pulled Armstrong and Requiem popped Voyager reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee).

[Comun]

You know, there's been a recent push that Actually, There's No Time Limit On Servants At All, but I've never seen it from a reputable source. What was the original text on that?

Nasu said he probably wouldn't do that because he's too sensible to, say, include WW2 people or people with living relatives who can complain about the portrayal, and because they are too well-document, giving very little leeway for creative bullshit. People took it as an in-universe rule rather than a writing principle. It's kinda hard to Google the source because this in pretty much never a topic of discussion in JP communities.

the real sin is how many scientists were suddenly mages all along

I'm probably forgetting someone huge, but I can't think of a single example of this from the top of my head.

[Hakuno]

(until LE pulled Armstrong and Requiem popped Voyager reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee).

Wasn't he namedropped since OG Extra as one of the Servants that Shinji saw?

[Lily Emilio]

This reminds me that somehow they probably going to shoehorn Beasts into tsuk:re

Nero Chaos: Behold, my grand ambition, that is to become like "mama"!
Arc: Mama? Who's that?
Nero Chaos: The primordial mother of all life obviously. The mud of genesis, the tide of chaos! Let all be regressed to the beginning!
Arc: I see, so you want to inherit her "sin". Such a good boy. With "I" being already defeated in this world, she could not be released, so you plan to take her place. Now that I am aware of this, I cannot allow you to live!

[AAM1232]

Nasu said he probably wouldn't do that because he's too sensible to, say, include WW2 people or people with living relatives who can complain about the portrayal, and because they are too well-document, giving very little leeway for creative bullshit. People took it as an in-universe rule rather than a writing principle. It's kinda hard to Google the source because this in pretty much never a topic of discussion in JP communities.



I'm probably forgetting someone huge, but I can't think of a single example of this from the top of my head.

As far as Nasu goes, he said this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/grandorder/...oko_nasu_fate/

Nasu: It's what I was talking about before, the fun of liberal interpretations. For example, in the original legend, you get these brief, like two-line descriptions. Something like, "Cú Chulainn (*) has a spear called the Gáe Bulg. The spear is said to always pierce the heart of the wielder's foe and burst within it." And that's it, that's all you get. But if you look at it the other way, you can do whatever you want as long as you make sure to adhere to those two lines.

Nasu: It's why I've always been opposed to turning contemporary figures into Servants, because they're extensively documented. That said, Fate GO has such a huge volume of Heroic Spirits that I violate that taboo.

[Rafflesiac]

Nasu said he probably wouldn't do that because he's too sensible to, say, include WW2 people or people with living relatives who can complain about the portrayal, and because they are too well-document, giving very little leeway for creative bullshit. People took it as an in-universe rule rather than a writing principle. It's kinda hard to Google the source because this in pretty much never a topic of discussion in JP communities.



I'm probably forgetting someone huge, but I can't think of a single example of this from the top of my head.

Edison, no? Though it's more the association of scientists with the magical mechanism known as Servant summoning that gets me.

Wasn't he namedropped since OG Extra as one of the Servants that Shinji saw?

That soudns familiar, I'm willing to believe that. Doesn't change my point though (and makes Extra look worse lol).

[Bookworm Luke]

As far as Nasu goes, he said this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/grandorder/...oko_nasu_fate/

Well, there you go.

Helpful discussion. This is why FGO got quarantined into a separate universe.

[AAM1232]

"Whether it's from a little bit in the past or a lot in the past, you can pull a Servant." Combine that with other statements on how it's functionally impossible to become an HS thanks to technology and culture shifts and Counter Guardians are still the only future sources of HSs (until LE pulled Armstrong and Requiem popped Voyager reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee).

I mean Nasu has said in a Q&A that the weapons with a soul that were worshipped as the greatest would become HSs instead of the people using them.

[Comun]

No, Edison (and Tesla) was friends with Helena but never subscribed her hoakey ideas. The idea of Mystery goes directly against everything Edison stands for.

[Bookworm Luke]

I mean Nasu has said in a Q&A that the weapons with a soul that were worshipped as the greatest would become HSs instead of the people using them.

That full Q&A is trying say why modern heroes and weapons don't become heroic spirits.

Basically you need a haunted nuclear bomb or something like that.

[Zork Knight]

Edison, no?

Since when has Edison been a real wizard?

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Nasu said he probably wouldn't do that because he's too sensible to, say, include WW2 people or people with living relatives who can complain about the portrayal, and because they are too well-document, giving very little leeway for creative bullshit. People took it as an in-universe rule rather than a writing principle. It's kinda hard to Google the source because this in pretty much never a topic of discussion in JP communities.

And now we have Florence Nightingale's alleged grand-nephew exposing her kinks in reddit

And Edison looking like that because Pako...

[pinetree]

I'm probably forgetting someone huge, but I can't think of a single example of this from the top of my head.

Da Vinci is the only one I think.

[Rafflesiac]

No, Edison (and Tesla) was friends with Helena but never subscribed her hoakey ideas. The idea of Mystery goes directly against everything Edison stands for.

Oh. Why did he become a Caster, then? Were all of the Presidents Casters?

[AAM1232]

No, it doesn't work that way. In the Japanese text, those are commas indicating they are one sentence.

It's like "Hey man, catch me anytime | between 8am and 5pm."

I am pretty sure BL went through this exercise many times. We had the same discussion when EXTRA Li Shuwen came out.

From Fallacies who TLed that section:

そうして年代を問わず、近くは百年前、遠くは神代の頃から英霊は召喚された。
And / thus (そうして), without askance of (を問わず) era (年代) -- from as / originating of (から), the close / near / proximate / vicinity (近く) being (は) a hundred years prior (百年前); the far / distant (遠く) being (は) the proximity / period of (の頃) the Age of Divinities (神代) -- Heroic Spirits (英霊) are (は) summoned forth (召喚された).

This is about as close to a literal translation as you can get without being unintelligible in English.
The blue qualifies the red, but wouldn't compromise the intelligibility of the sentence if removed:

そうして年代を問わず、英霊は召喚された。
Thus, without askance of era, Heroic Spirits are summoned forth.

Therefore, I rendered the whole of the sentence as, "And irrelevant of era -- from as close as a hundred years prior; or as far as the vicinity of the Age of Divinities -- Heroic Spirits have been summoned forth."
"The near / proximate / vicinity being a hundred years prior" means exactly what it says, as part of a qualification of "thus, without askance of era."

Is Mirror Moon's "the most" in "the most recent" a valid interpretation?
No, because there is no sense of "most" in 近く.
It's simply "close / near / proximate / vicinity."
近く could be taken to establish "the nearmost extremity" -- but that isn't explicit to the Japanese text.
Likewise, "oldest" is not a valid interpretation of 遠く.

Incidentally, renditions of 近く to various online dictionaries (for example, goo, Wiktionary, Kotobank, or Jisho) are a decent illustration of the limitations of J-E dictionaries in general.