Why are we calling him Food?
Why are we calling him Food?
Because he delicious.
FGO Supports
Calling falla's translation better than mirror moon's requires comparing the translation with the original text. If you can't make that call and don't argue for it, don't make it a point in your argument. Using either translation, arguing that "regardless of era" means "heroes can be summoned from anywhere in time" requires this reading of the sentence:Originally Posted by AAM1232
、factそうして年代を問わずobservation近くは百年前、遠くは神代の頃から. Chopping it up and joining the ends doesn't make for evidence. As Comun noted, there are other avenues to argue that what Rin recounts is her observation (from records of grail wars before the 4th? Also the past tense in 不可能を可能にした;使い魔に固定した;英霊は召喚された arises by referring to what the Grail's creation made possible); the context of the lines in the prologue is why it is assumed this information in a character's internal narration is meant to be taken as genuine setting information being conveyed to the reader instead of their own educated guess or opinion - even more so when everything in the context apart from that one excerpt is taken as fact.fact英霊は召喚された
Which then clashes with the later statement in the next 2 lines that Heroic Spirits of every era and nation get revived for the HGW. So "every era" clearly doesn't mean what it is supposed to mean. So every era = every era, except for that line where it means 1900 AD to AoG time. This isn't logical or even reasonable, especially if you take Rin at face value and decide that stuff like self contradiction in the middle of an explanation is OK.
He basically confessed to sockpuppeting a few pages back so
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Also I love you, thanks.
It's not logical for "every" to refer to the conditions set up two sentences ago?
"And regardless of era, heroic spirits were summoned - the nearest/latest from a hundred years ago, the farthest/oldest from the age of the gods.
Seven heroic spirits respectively obey seven Masters, protecting their own Master and eliminating the enemies.
...heroes from every era and region are revived in the present day to kill each other and vie for supremacy.
That is why this ritual is called the Holy Grail War."
This is the same issue of reading a line outside of context. "Regardless of era" and "every era" don't stand on their own, they are qualified by the temporal parameters set in their immediate context. Consider: "No matter their age, people as young as 10 and as old as 110 years old enjoy our product. People of all ages are entertained by...." for an example of how all-inclusive words are context-sensitive.
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The most remarkable thing in that passage isn't that people from every era=the future can be summoned, it's that even people from deep antiquity can be brought into the present day. That's the thrust of "every era".
Except "anything goes for Servants" has literally never been the case, as every single Holy Grail War we've read about had at least one example of "someone who shouldn't have been able to be summoned/become a Servant".
shit BL says
Once and always and nevermore.
Not really? Apart from this then running into the existence of Archer, as deduced by Rin and Shirou, with the latter even calling him a HS along with Saber, something I completely forgot about, it also ignores that Nasu himself was considering modern weapons as possible HS in the Comptiq Q&A when people asked him if those who used modern weapons could become HS.
It also ignores Rin's line from Day 3 about what can qualify as HS, where she states machines can be HS if they meet certain requirments.
Spoiler:
All to say FGO has retconned stuff from FSN, by deciding that only this version of the line is acceptable. Especially when latest and oldest aren't even explicit readings of that line, as explained in the TL I quoted.
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Considering the amount of liberties taken with Servant depictions since FSN, anything can go is a fine description as to what can be and what makes a Servant.
That's a metanarrative perspective, and it's exactly what people are complaining about. "Officially" all these Servants were exceptions, rule-breakers, cosmic coincidence one-off's. But when their numbers keep increasing and eventually threaten to outnumber "orthodox" Servants, it becomes a farce with the audience as its victim.
shit BL says
Once and always and nevermore.
The argument for why there "can't" be heroic spirits in the modern era is based on those Nasu statements: no one's deeds are special/inimitable enough, and even the things that make them special (weapons, machines, etc) need to have a soul to become heroic spirits. These statements constitute the logic of what can by its nature or deeds ascend to the status of a heroic spirit in this setting. Archer is an exception in terms of qualification, because his status as a counter guardian who made a pact to enter Alaya's service bypasses the requirements for a soul to be enshrined on its own merit as a heroic spirit - all counter guardians are heroic spirits, but heroic spirits "proper" have become so on the basis of their own legends; this is what "becoming a heroic spirit refers to". If a machine -or even a person - were to come up in TM as a heroic spirit that is famous, unique in nature or deeds, and has a soul, that would be an exception in terms of temporality as a heroic spirit enshrined in the present.
It's better to acknowledge that Nasu changes his mind sometimes on how things work even if he doesn't explicitly insert clauses, retroactively reframe them, or say that with Chaldea's summoning machine anything goes, than to twist the text to accommodate for what came afterwards.
Last edited by Leftovers; July 3rd, 2020 at 06:22 AM.
Only a small mind can lock itself into a prison of its own devise.
That's the true philosophy of the Lying Adult.
don't quote me on this
Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes).
Because you are too young. Or too stupid. Or both.
I'm not the one blindly accepting the lines in prologue as true with the hard limit on summons to claim everything else since about that topic is a retcon. And sure, Nasu changes his mind, that's already true since the existence of Prototype amd the mess with Grain/True Ether. Doesn't mean this is a great example since by that line of thought it's very visibly contradicted by Rin and Shirou separately and it isn't really presented as an exception but as something improbable, yet fitting the facts. Unless in story retcons are also a thing Nasu dabbles in for fun.
You'd have to be blind to not see the arguments for it. Thanks for the concern though.
I don't know why we're even arguing about this when we have Nasu's admission in black on white about changing his mind on Archer being able to project Excalibur when he saw the animation they'd made in Extra for it. He's never exactly hidden that he goes for "whatever's cool" over consistency.
Which to be honest isn't even a bad thing in moderation and when done with the intent to really tell a good story; sure, some people bitched about Apocrypha and Prillya but they were generally im the minority for that. It was GO's leap into obvious corporate production and rapid-fire Servant development that balooned the problem to what it is now. It's really hard to defend whatever the newest "exception" is, even when it's something genuinely cool, when you know it comes with a hefty pricetag attached.
shit BL says
Once and always and nevermore.
OK, don't say I don't love you. I dug through the god-awful script dump to get you the full scene to give you the context:
Rin monologue starts:
Basically, Rin is anchoring you that Servants are characters of the past in myth and lore.率直に言おう。
サーヴァントとは、過去の英雄 (Heroes of the Past) そのものである
神話、伝説、寓話、歴史。(Myths, legends, fables, history)
真偽問わず、伝承の中 (within tradition/lore) で活躍し確固たる存在となった
“超人”たちを英雄という。
A hero needs to die to become a Heroic Spirit.人々の間で永久不変となった英雄は、死後、人間とい
うカテゴリーから除外されて別の存在に昇格する。
……奇跡を行い、人々を救い、偉業を成し遂げた人間
は、生前、ないし死後に英雄として祭り上げられる。
そうして祭り上げられた彼らは、死後に英霊と呼ばれ
る精霊に昇格し、人間サイドの守護者になる。
A Heroic Spirit doesn't need to be real.これは実在の人物であろうが神話上の人物であろうが
構わない。
英雄を作り出すのは人々の想念だ。
こうであってほしい、と想う心が彼らを形取り、彼ら
を実在のモノとして祭り上げる。
そこに真偽は関係ない。
ただ伝説として確かな知名度と信仰心さえあれば彼ら
は具現化する。
Heroic Spirits are usually borrowed/channeled but not summoned.人間が生み出した究極の理想、人間の中でもっとも優
れた人間。
それが英雄であり、英霊である。
そして当然、人間以上である彼らは、決して人間では
操れない。
魔術師は彼らの力の一端を借り受け、その真似事をこ
なす程度に留まるのが常だ。
英霊そのものを呼び出して使役する、なんて事は決し
て出来はしない。
Binding Heroic Spirits as Servants is a testament of the Holy Grail being omnipotent.が、聖杯はその不可能を可能にした。
本来人間の手におえぬ英霊をまるごと召喚し、あまつ
さえマスターに仕える使い魔に固定した。
そのデタラメさは、まさに聖杯が万能である事の証で
もある。
Our portion of interest.そうして年代を問わず、近くは百年前、遠くは神代の
頃から英霊は召喚された。
七人の英霊はそれぞれ七人のマスターに従い、おのが
マスターを守護し、敵であるマスターを駆逐する。
……あらゆる年代、あらゆる国の英雄が現代に蘇り、
覇を競い合う殺し合い。
それが、この儀式が聖杯戦争と呼ばれる由縁だろう。
Disregarding/regardless of era, Heroic Spirits have been summoned from as recent as a hundred years ago, to as distant as the Age of Gods.
The seven Heroic Spirits obey their Masters, protecting them and eliminating the opposing Masters.
...heroes from every age and every nation are resurrected to the present day, and to slaughter each other for supremacy.
If you really want context, the monologue sets the Heroic Spirits as the stuff of the past.
The translation you hang your hat on is basically skewing the words.
The "every age" in context here is basically "every age in the past".
He made up an explanation for Extra. Not remotely close to retconning UBW with HF. So yeah he goes for what's cool, considering his interactions with other authors on their Fate works and suggests how they might try to fit stuff in overall.
For me personally I don't mind a lot of GO Servants when they have interesting backgrounds and gimmicks even if they really play with "Anything Goes" like Quirinus, KH, Calamity Jane, Space Ishtar and so on. But that's me, so I'll just agree to disagree regarding the topics, and take any punishments regarding the last few pages of my fight with Food. Sorry to those who were annoyed a lot by that.
fallacies translations should not be relied upon for anything beyond pigeon-feeding (fgo redditors) until she demonstrates the ability to use the english language
かん汗ぎゅう牛じゅう充とう棟
Expresses the exceeding size of one's library.
Books are extremely many, loaded on an oxcart the ox will sweat.
At home piled to the ridgepole of the house, from this meaning.
Read out as 「Ushi ni ase shi, munagi ni mitsu.」
Source: 柳宗元「其為書，處則充棟宇，出則汗牛馬。」— Tang Dynasty
All this talk of retcon reminds me, has anyone translated the El-Melloi's Case Files volume 6 afterword yet?
I mean, besides the name calling, I don't really care.
But I really don't like the fact that you are claiming context with Fallacy's translation, while his translation obviously has ulterior motives.
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