Wow, the definition of 'bad' must have changed over the course of the years...
Wow, the definition of 'bad' must have changed over the course of the years...
Originally Posted by celsius
Or good magi are a lot better than you think.
[04:55] Lianru: i3uster is actuallly quite cute
Wasn't Fast Wheels supposed to be quite the good magus though? I thought I'd seen something mentioning that Waver > Fast Wheels once he grew up, and combined with the idea that Fast Wheels = Good Magus made me think Waver was, whilst not exceptional, an above average magus by the time he was all grown up and dismantling Grails.
Huh. The tricks your mind plays on you.
I thought that was from a skill standpoint.
And really, it's just that Waver lacks the circuit amount/quality to reach the level Magi define as over "good". Still better than Shirou, who will never leave the level of an apprentice by virtue of his circuits alone.
Nah, Seika can fetch you the statement where it says that every single one of his students surpassed him in ranks on the Clock Tower and pretty much turns out better than him lol.
Kayneth on the other hand was certainly a lot better than that, after all the Archibald family is pretty awesome (IIRC even the Bartholomeloi talk to them) and he was said to be a genius even among them.
But yeah, still better than Shirou.
[04:55] Lianru: i3uster is actuallly quite cute
But didn't Shirou have an above average number of circuits? I mean, I don't know the quality of them so that might be why he wouldn't be classed as good, but I was sure it was mentioned somewhere that his 20-25ish circuits was considered "above the norm". My lord, I'm so confused about everything. I no longer know what is real anymore.
Shirou has good circuits... in quantity. Quantity != Quality. And the quality turned out to be worse thanks to years of being dormant.
I never said anything in contrary~
But conclusion: Waver is a good teacher, a skilled researcher, but a weak magus.
Still better than Shirou though.
And now I'm wondering what would happen had Waver been Shirou's teacher.
Edit: Oh wait, that happened in Son of the Great
Yeah Shirou has an above average number, but the "quality" declining due to being dormant is fanon.
You sadly can't train circuits, just handle your flow and control better (don't sue me Waver)
[04:55] Lianru: i3uster is actuallly quite cute
Shirou has above average circuit count but he himself is not talented as a magus. He's good at his sword stuff, but aside from that he's really, REALLY bad. Like, trash. Waver lacks decent circuits and other cool shit, but he's a great teacher and can really improve on shit that's not his. After taking the title of El-Melloi II he inherits a bunch of cool shit that he had no part in the creation of, including Volumen HydraWHATEVERIT'SCALLED, which he improves on a bit and turns into a maid. (I am not kidding)
Neither Shirou nor Waver are good magi though. Not even average, really.
Depends. Are you talking about pre-Kiritsugu Shirou (with normal circuits), or post-Kiritsugu Shirou (after being taught the worst way of using magic)?
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I aply to it the Law of Use and Disuse. If parts of the body not used can atrophy, magical circuits may lose their efficiency over time. That is, until you use them enough for them to be normal.
Shirou's circuits detoriating from not being used is fanon, I think. The reason why Shirou can't make much out of them is because his body, and by extension him, is not used to them, since pre-FSN he had never used them before.
It's not the circuits themselves, it's him.
That's how I interpreted it, anyways.
Circuits don't change yknow.
Though there is interesting wank (read: fanon) going on that Avalon actually produced his circuits, since it also changed everything else about him :V
[04:55] Lianru: i3uster is actuallly quite cute
That's what I'm saying. His circuits have always been average, Shirou's usage of them is just shitty because they were dormant, therefort his body can't handle them as they should if he'd been properly trained from a young age like Rin.
It's how I see it, anyways. :X
I understand Shirous being shitty-to-average magus, it was the whole "quality of his circuits is low" thing I hadn't heard before. For good reason, it appears.
And Waver makes sense, I just made the assumptions by how much he'd modified Volumen Hydraganum and ended up being called an Archmagus that he'd been pretty good. Also probably influenced a bit by thinking that the Grail would have been damn hard to dismantle. But that was probably mostly Rin now that I think about it.
inb4 turns out Rin's curse kicked in and she fucked up the dismantling and the Grail's still dormant and waiting to activate and Waver didn't notice because Waver a shit.
I'm not talking to you all the time YOLF
[04:55] Lianru: i3uster is actuallly quite cute
Ah. xD
We are in agreement then?
You know that dismantling the Grail just means blowing up the cave, right.
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It appears so, except I maintain the fact that they aren't shitty because he uses them shitty, but probably are shitty because they are so specialized on doing one thing and one thing only, that is handling UBW. So whenever he tries to do actual magus stuff he fumbles.
[04:55] Lianru: i3uster is actuallly quite cute
Oh right. That too. I was thinking mostly about the amount of prana they can handle.
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